Optimal strength training for runners

So I have read the links and even the one about avoiding lunges considers split squats a better option than lunges if you don't have access to a barbell, which I don't. So I guess I could keep doing it or maybe build that box for step ups.

Edit : Abide, I'll look it up, thanks! :)
 
If you can afford it, adjustable boxes are nice. I paid $80 for this: http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B008F48BEK/ref=wms_ohs_product?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I was surprised, however, at how quickly I got up to 24" for box jumps so if you do make your own, don't be too conservative height-wise.
The thing is, I can just as well build a 16x24x30 wooden box and it would be "adjustable". But it does look like a nice product. I'll see how thick my wallet is after I've built my free standing pull up bar. I also might have some scrap yet very sturdy leftover wood that I might be able to use for the box, thus it wouldn't cost much if at all. (probably just screws and a saw)

Can you guys help me out on DOMS? I've always had DOMS especially in chest (almost never in shoulders or biceps), but I've never considered it that big of a deal. I've googled it quickly and haven't really found very adverse effects.
 
The thing is, I can just as well build a 16x24x30 wooden box and it would be "adjustable". But it does look like a nice product. I'll see how thick my wallet is after I've built my free standing pull up bar. I also might have some scrap yet very sturdy leftover wood that I might be able to use for the box, thus it wouldn't cost much if at all. (probably just screws and a saw)

Can you guys help me out on DOMS? I've always had DOMS especially in chest (almost never in shoulders or biceps), but I've never considered it that big of a deal. I've googled it quickly and haven't really found very adverse effects.
DIY is a good way to go for a lot of stuff, but with two young children I often find it easier to shell out the dough for a finished product, rather than have a toddler hanging around our table saw or something, and purpose-built products are often more convenient. For my home gym, I've DIY'd cable flyes, added a chinup bar to my rack, made a dip station out of plumbing pipe (which actually wasn't any cheaper than a manufactured dip station!), clubbells, t-bar for hinge (kettlebell) swings, and a few other things. Kemme Fitness has a page of DIY gym equipment:
http://kemmefitness.com/resources/homemade-equipment/
http://kemmefitness.com/category/do-it-yourself/

I also considered making a deadlift bar jack out of plumbing pipe,



but it would've cost about the same as the rubber wedges + shipping I linked to above. The wedges will be easier store or carry to a gym, and with two of them, I have a nice little platform to keep the bar from rolling around. Like Abide says, you can do the same thing with small plates, so it was kind of a capricious purchase.

For the adjustable box, I like the one I linked to because you can warm up at 14" or 19" and then quickly pull the legs out to 24". It's a very stable platform and I can store my medicine ball underneath it when I'm not using it.

I don't really understand the sudden outcry about DOMS. I consider it a normal outcome from working out. I'm always a little bit sore from running or lifting. But I do think it's a good gauge for the quality of one's workouts. I try to find a Goldilocks-like balance. If I'm not sore at all, then I probably didn't push the run or st workout enough. If I'm really sore and having trouble moving around the next day, then I probably pushed it too much. I find walking or stretching helps recover from DOMS, but a lot of people would recommend against the latter, saying that you're preventing the muscle from repairing itself by stretching it out further. I used to do karate so I'm biased towards stretching.

I dunno, there's so much contradictory information out there, and the health/fitness/nutrition industries are full of fadism, so it takes a while to figure out which sites or schools of thought make the most sense to you. These forums, however, are a great place to talk things over and compare notes.
 
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I don't really understand the sudden outcry about DOMS. I consider it a normal outcome from working out. I'm always a little bit sore from running or lifting. But I do think it's a good gauge for the quality of one's workouts. I try to find a Goldilocks-like balance. If I'm not sore at all, then I probably didn't push the run or st workout enough. If I'm really sore and having trouble moving around the next day, then I probably pushed it too much.
That's kind of the way I've always thought about it. Thanks for the heads-up.

The thing is about DIY, I don't have children around and my father-in-law has discounts at the local shop for materials. Also, in the case of the free standing pull up bar, making it with pipes allows easy mounting/dismounting and I can probably make it the height I need. (I don't have a basement or anywhere with a high ceiling).

Oh and by the way, nice find on that rubber wedge. At that price, I definitely understand why you didn't go for the DIY option.
 
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I don't really understand the sudden outcry about DOMS. I consider it a normal outcome from working out. I'm always a little bit sore from running or lifting. But I do think it's a good gauge for the quality of one's workouts. I try to find a Goldilocks-like balance. If I'm not sore at all, then I probably didn't push the run or st workout enough. If I'm really sore and having trouble moving around the next day, then I probably pushed it too much. I find walking or stretching helps recover from DOMS, but a lot of people would recommend against the latter, saying that you're preventing the muscle from repairing itself by stretching it out further. I used to do karate so I'm biased towards stretching.

I dunno, there's so much contradictory information out there, and the health/fitness/nutrition industries are full of fadism, so it takes a while to figure out which sites or schools of thought make the most sense to you. These forums, however, are a great place to talk things over and compare notes.

I like to differentiate DOMS from soreness. I think some muscle soreness the next day or 2nd day is perfectly acceptable but only to the point where it is not painful and just slightly uncomfortable. You should still be able to lift with this soreness, maybe not a max lift but somewhat challenging weight. And as Lee stated mobilizing the sore area should provide some relief. DOMS on the other hand would be like running a fast uphill 10k without any hill training and your calves screaming at you the next day when you get out of bed. Or running an untrained marathon.

It's all muscle breakdown but at different levels. Basically if you can't lift the next day you have DOMS and you should avoid it if you can. It tends to happen more if you don't do whatever it is your are doing consistently.
 
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Wednesday afternoon, did 3x3x205 bench press, felt pretty good. 3x3 is a nice workset routine, I oftentimes like it better than 3x5. I didn't go for a 1RM because I wanted to be cautious after last week's extreme soreness.

Then for the overhead press, I tried to follow the advice in this video,
which was embedded in one of Sid's links: http://saptstrength.com/2011/11/07/to-overhead-press-or-not-to-overhead-press/
I took my grip in to about what it is for the deadlift, in the middle of the knurled area inside the smooth lines. I also tried to keep my elbows out in front. It was close to the power clean rack position. I think this more compacted, elbows-out grip helped my shoulder most on the eccentric phase of the lift. I started out at 75 pounds but everything felt good so I went up and did 3x5x95. Felt really good and today I'm not too sore, so maybe next week I'll try 105.

Then I tried Sid's suggestion to do landmine presses. At first, I tried them in a half-kneeling position, but it was awkward getting the bar off the floor this way. Then I tried it standing up, but it was too much like an incline bench press. So I went back down to the floor but placed the bar and plates on top of the bench to start off with. This felt pretty good. It's still a bit like a single-arm incline bench press though, which might not be a bad thing, but I wonder how useful it is to add this to the flat bench press and seated overhead press. Seems a little redundant, but I'll try it again next week and see how it goes.

Then I did my squats. This was the second week in a row that I did them last, after the upper body stuff, and for some reason I like it like this. After a quick warm-up at 95, I tried 135, and the full, ass-to-grass squats felt pretty good, so I brought it up to 3x3x185, still ass-to-grass. At this weight I noticed I started to hip drive a bit more, but without turning it into a good morning squat as Abide says. It felt like what it looks like in Abide's Klokov video. So that was nice. I also found myself adopting a thumbless grip by the second set or so, without thinking about it. That was cool. I guess I'm gaining some shoulder mobility. My grip is starting to look like Rippetoe's recommendation, and the bar placement on my back is feeling pretty automatic now. In general, everything felt really good. I think I'm ready to start pushing the squats a bit more, and I'm wondering if I should start doing them twice a week. Something like this:

Mon
Deadlift (full effort)
Upper Body Pulls (medium effort)

Wed
Squat (medium effort)
Upper Body Pushes (full effort)

Fri
Squat (full effort) & Power Clean (medium effort)
Upper Body Pulls (full effort)

or

Mon
Squat (full effort)
Upper Body Pulls (medium effort)

Wed
Deadlift (full effort)
Upper Body Pushes (full effort)

Fri
Squat (medium effort) & Power Clean (medium effort)
Upper Body Pulls (full effort)

In any case, looking forward to this afternoon's run down by the river. As I noted in the mileage forum, I think I've completely given up worrying about whether the st interferes with the running. Reading RDL's explanation just now helped solidify this intuition: http://www.rdlfitness.com/energy-systems-training/
 
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Wednesday afternoon, did 3x3x205 bench press, felt pretty good. 3x3 is a nice workset routine, I oftentimes like it better than 3x5. I didn't go for a 1RM because I wanted to be cautious after last week's extreme soreness.

Then for the overhead press, I tried to follow the advice in this video,
which was embedded in one of Sid's links: http://saptstrength.com/2011/11/07/to-overhead-press-or-not-to-overhead-press/
I took my grip in to about what it is for the deadlift, in the middle of the knurled area inside the smooth lines. I also tried to keep my elbows out in front. It was close to the power clean rack position. I think this more compacted, elbows-out grip helped my shoulder most on the eccentric phase of the lift. I started out at 75 pounds but everything felt good so I went up and did 3x5x95. Felt really good and today I'm not too sore, so maybe next week I'll try 105.

Lol a six minute video for 30 seconds of good advice. The things people do to get youtube hits.

I actually put my hands on the smooth inner section when I press. I think one thing he missed is to contract the glutes, its amazing how much more stable I become with a narrower stance, tight glutes and close grip.

However, things tend to fall apart once you add more weight. That's the trouble area I have, and how to get over that slump? Maybe doing your preference of building up to a max for the day and then doing drop sets? I might give that a try.
 
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Lol a six minute video for 30 seconds of good advice. The things people do to get youtube hits.

I actually put my hands on the smooth inner section when I press. I think one thing he missed is to contract the glutes, its amazing how much more stable I become with a narrower stance, tight glutes and close grip.

However, things tend to fall apart once you add more weight. That's the trouble area I have, and how to get over that slump? Maybe doing your preference of building up to a max for the day and then doing drop sets? I might give that a try.
Ha, yep. The first time I watched it, I skimmed through to the lift, and was annoyed by his attempt at humor. Sid had posted a ton of links and I was in a hurry. Then this morning, after being impressed with the results from his advice, I watched the whole thing. I liked the beginning's parody, I have to admit, and the overall skit and conceit is pretty well done.

The last few weeks I've had my pinky just inside the smooth line, but moving it in a few inches more seemed to help even more. My left shoulder is still a little gimpy this morning, but not nearly as bad as last week, and I've been stretching it. I skipped the dips again in order to limit the different factors in play as I try to figure out the best way to do pushes/presses. I'm willing to give up overhead presses altogether if it comes down to that, or simply do them with lighter weights, but for the time being I'm messing around with technique, in the hopes that someday I'll be able to press a decent amount of weight. I think in my case, it makes sense to avoid 1RM for the time being, and shoot for higher reps. 3x5 feels about right for the OH press.

If I get a higher ceiling and can do standing OH presses I'll definitely consider the glutes advice. I've been impressed with how much the OH press works the mid-back area when done in a seated position.
 
Ha, yep. The first time I watched it, I skimmed through to the lift, and was annoyed by his attempt at humor. Sid had posted a ton of links and I was in a hurry. Then this morning, after being impressed with the results from his advice, I watched the whole thing. I liked the beginning's parody, I have to admit, and the overall skit and conceit is pretty well done.

The last few weeks I've had my pinky just inside the smooth line, but moving it in a few inches more seemed to help even more. My left shoulder is still a little gimpy this morning, but not nearly as bad as last week, and I've been stretching it. I skipped the dips again in order to limit the different factors in play as I try to figure out the best way to do pushes/presses. I'm willing to give up overhead presses altogether if it comes down to that, or simply do them with lighter weights, but for the time being I'm messing around with technique, in the hopes that someday I'll be able to press a decent amount of weight. I think in my case, it makes sense to avoid 1RM for the time being, and shoot for higher reps. 3x5 feels about right for the OH press.

If I get a higher ceiling and can do standing OH presses I'll definitely consider the glutes advice. I've been impressed with how much the OH press works the mid-back area when done in a seated position.

Well you aren't a man until you can press your bodyweight! I chuckled at that too. Seem like he has a pretty nice gym to work in.

I would imagine seated you would use your lower back more so and standing your glutes. But keep at it and just quit the session if you feel any pain. In the grand scheme of things any one lift isn't going to be the end all. There are plenty of others to fill in.
 
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Well you aren't a man until you can press your bodyweight! I chuckled at that too. Seem like he has a pretty nice gym to work in.

I would imagine seated you would use your lower back more so and standing your glutes. But keep at it and just quit the session if you feel any pain. In the grand scheme of things any one lift isn't going to be the end all. There are plenty of others to fill in.
Yah, and it might be the bench press just as much. Who knows, maybe I'll end up just doing dips and forgo the bench and overhead press altogether.

The funny thing is, for a while, I had gotten on top of it and didn't feel much soreness or pain in the left shoulder at all. This was at a time when I was already benching 225 1-2 reps with a wide grip, and I think I was doing behind-the-head OH presses and pulldowns too. So I dunno. I'll keep experimenting. It feels like it's getting better with the medium grips so maybe it'll right itself again gradually over the next few months. For the time being, though, I'm limiting all the presses to once a week.

Exrx considers a bodyweight oh press to be somewhere between advanced and elite, so it seems a bit irresponsible to tell people they need to achieve that level, especially when youtube videos reach a younger, more impressionable audience.
 
It's funny, I always thought ass-to-grass was putting more stress on the knees. Not that I can do it with my current equipment (only dumbbells). Sadly, squats always caused me hip pain, probably because of hip misalignment which is in turn caused by a vertebrae being too large on the left side (saw this on xrays when I was 16).
 
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Been looking around this site and found this interesting tidbit.
"How does the injury rate in strength sports compare to that in endurance sports?
In comparison to the overall rate of injury in strength sports of between 0.24 – 5.5 injuries per 1,000 hours of training, the rate of injury during long-distance running is around 2.5 – 12.1 injuries per 1,000 hours and the rate during triathlon is around 1.4 – 5.4 injuries per 1,000 hours training. Thus, strength sports are certainly no more injurious than those endurance activities that have been investigated widely."

Here is another interesting quote.

http://www.strengthandconditioningresearch.com/2012/08/29/squat-depth/

"Athletes should be aware that, for all its great benefits, the squat does not use the leg muscles to their maximum capabilities, even at very high percentages of 1RM. This suggests that athletes should make use of a variety of exercises to develop the leg musculature to their full extent."
 
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It's funny, I always thought ass-to-grass was putting more stress on the knees. Not that I can do it with my current equipment (only dumbbells). Sadly, squats always caused me hip pain, probably because of hip misalignment which is in turn caused by a vertebrae being too large on the left side (saw this on xrays when I was 16).
That's a popular misconception, apparently. But in fact, it's the partial squats that are bad for your knees, as RDL explains somewhere on his site.

As Abide has said, and most videos attest, breaking parallel seems to be the standard, but I like AtG for the greater mobility. RDF says there may be some risks with it: http://www.rdlfitness.com/how-to-squat-with-a-barbell/
But so far (just my second week of AtG) it feels fine and natural to me, although it's probably true I'll be able to do less weight this way than just breaking parallel.

I wonder if there are exercises you could do to treat the misalignment, like hip raises or ab-/adduction or something. Have you consulted with a PT or Chiro?
 
As Abide has said, and most videos attest, breaking parallel seems to be the standard, but I like AtG for the greater mobility. RDF says there may be some risks with At: http://www.rdlfitness.com/how-to-squat-with-a-barbell/
But so far (just my second week of AtG) it feels fine and natural to me, although it's probably true I'll be able to do less weight this way than just breaking parallel.

I wonder if there are exercises you could do to treat the misalignment, like hip raises or ab-/adduction or something. Have you consulted with a PT or Chiro?

As for the weight, personally, it's not much of a concern as I'm no professional weightlifter. So long as I(you) get a good work out out of it. I might give it a shot eventually. If it feels good for you, I don't see any reason you should stop.

I'm still unsure regarding the misalignment. I was led to believe there wasn't much I could do since the misalignment is caused by a bone and not by muscle imbalance. I might eventually go back to my Chiro and see what he thinks about it. He had suggested some exercises back in the day, but since I was still quite young and didn't experience any pain from it, neither of us gave it much more thought.
 
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Been looking around this site and found this interesting tidbit.
"How does the injury rate in strength sports compare to that in endurance sports?
In comparison to the overall rate of injury in strength sports of between 0.24 – 5.5 injuries per 1,000 hours of training, the rate of injury during long-distance running is around 2.5 – 12.1 injuries per 1,000 hours and the rate during triathlon is around 1.4 – 5.4 injuries per 1,000 hours training. Thus, strength sports are certainly no more injurious than those endurance activities that have been investigated widely."
A lot safer than soccer!:
http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Safety.html
Here is another interesting quote.

http://www.strengthandconditioningresearch.com/2012/08/29/squat-depth/

"Athletes should be aware that, for all its great benefits, the squat does not use the leg muscles to their maximum capabilities, even at very high percentages of 1RM. This suggests that athletes should make use of a variety of exercises to develop the leg musculature to their full extent."

Thanks, the findings jibe with my intuitions/experience. I like AtG squats because they work the quads more, whereas deadlifts take care of the hammies. Box jumps are great for just about everything, and I like bench hops for the calves.

I've become a little suspicious of Bret and his hip thrust campaign, now that I know he's hawking a hip thrust apparatus.

As for the weight, personally, it's not much of a concern as I'm no professional weightlifter. So long as I(you) get a good work out out of it. I might give it a shot eventually. If it feels good for you, I don't see any reason you should stop.

I'm still unsure regarding the misalignment. I was led to believe there wasn't much I could do since the misalignment is caused by a bone and not by muscle imbalance. I might eventually go back to my Chiro and see what he thinks about it. He had suggested some exercises back in the day, but since I was still quite young and didn't experience any pain from it, neither of us gave it much more thought.

Yah, numbers are meaningless in and of themselves. I only recently discovered that the wide grip is used for bench presses because it shortens the distance and thus allows one to lift more weight. But it's not a good angle for the shoulder joint. So, let's see, which will get the best longterm results: lift more weight or lift more safely? Like a lot of stuff in strength training, we recreational strength trainees often adopt the practices of powerlifters or bodybuilders without understanding the underlying logic. It's not always about pure strength and "proper form."

If you read back a few pages, you'll see that Abide and I are actually in a little contest to see who can get up to a 405 deadlift first. But neither one of us is going to risk injury to get there first, and the number itself is arbitrary--it's the weight of eight Olympic 45-pound plates and a Olympic bar.

All the best figuring out the misalignment!
Maybe RDL has a point. Low back was feeling a bit tweaky, after DL last week. I'm going to put DL day, before squat day, in my rotation. DL seems like a more technical lift.
You have to build up to the deadlift very slowly, with immaculate form. There's a lot of risk involved.
 
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Maybe RDL has a point. Low back was feeling a bit tweaky, after DL last week. I'm going to put DL day, before squat day, in my rotation. DL seems like a more technical lift.
I never really had a problem with it back when I was lifting consistently (about a year and a half ago). I would squat one day and be fine for DL next work out. Maybe it's different for you, or maybe it's in the rest of your work out.

Huh, I tried deadlifts (light ones obviously) with dumbbells and the execution of the movement wasn't so great. I'm kind of reluctant to try it again.
 
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What do you think about grip and shoulder health? I am beginning to think I tend to let the bar rest more on my fingers. I'm gonna tinker tonight.

http://startingstrength.com/articles/learning_press_rippetoe.pdf

Your grip

will have placed the bar on the heel of your palms,

and your elbows should now move to a position just

in front of the bar when viewed from the side. This

placement creates a vertical position for the radius

bone of the forearm. (Most people place the elbows

under or behind the bar, positions that tend to make

the bar drive away from the body when you press.)

Shrug your shoulders up and forward just a little;

the idea is to have the bar resting on top of your

anterior deltoids, the meaty part of your shoulders,

at the start of the movement.