Optimal strength training for runners

[Bare Lee]

I'm all for developing as much as you can from a technique/strategy/exercise, then moving on.

Yep, that's all it is. Find what works, work it, and when it no longer works, give it a break. I like having a set order to my exercises, based on a couple different logics, but I don't have any prescripted notion of exactly how much weight, or how many reps or sets I'm going to do. Some days I surprise myself, some days I focus on one exercise if I'm really feeling it, some days I'm just going through the motions. Some days I'll try something new or try doing the same exercise a little different.

I tried some of the functional fitness stuff, but it doesn't really make sense to me. Like doing a bicep curl one-legged. Or doing a shoulder press on an unstable platform like a physioball. But if it works for other people, more power to them. Kind of like the Maffetone method. It works for Mike, but would be disastrous for me. I like some of the plyometric stuff though, and have been trying to work that in more. But at the end of the day, I pretty much just do what I've always done: free weights and running.

As for training to failure, I'll try to remember where I read about the physiological reasons for why it's bad practice. The problem is I'm not trained in physiology, so I have no way of evaluating the validity of these kinds of explanations. There's a lot of bs seeking license by throwing around a few Latinate medical terms. Once again, go with the pros. Is the researcher working at Harvard is it joe-blow with a fancy website? For that powerlifting website, I would ask who those guys are. Are they winning medals at the Olympics?

 

[Sid]

By the way, I added this to my last post. I know you like the scientific articles!
http://muscleandbrawn.com/training-to-failure-an-inside-look/

 

[Bare Lee]

By the way, I added this to my last post. I know you like the scientific articles!
http://muscleandbrawn.com/training-to-failure-an-inside-look/

Nice article and site! I'll try to read it more carefully later, although, as I said above, I don't have the competence to evaluate his claims. I like what he said about body types though, that makes sense to me, and he does say that serious powerlifters tend not to lift to failure, which if true, is good enough for me.

OK, I'm going to try to sleep another few hours. Try to knock out this nascent head cold for good.

 

[Sid]

Been looking at upgrading the dumbbells to these at some point, which are less fragile and have a lifetime warranty. They seem a bit pricey, but compared to just a pair of these, they seem like a bargain. I'm nowhere near using that much weight, but I'm maxing out my 90lb pair on an exercise from the back video. I don't want my progress to be limited by equipment, and I really like working out at home. (Although, I'm not opposed to going to the gym, if I progress to the point where I need a spotter.) I'm thinking that a 175lb pair would would be more than enough for a long time. (Woohoo, new toy!) Any thoughts from you more experienced folks?

 

[Bare Lee]

Been looking at upgrading the dumbbells to these at some point, which are less fragile and have a lifetime warranty. They seem a bit pricey, but compared to just a pair of these, they seem like a bargain. I'm nowhere near using that much weight, but I'm maxing out my 90lb pair on an exercise from the back video. I don't want my progress to be limited by equipment, and I really like working out at home. (Although, I'm not opposed to going to the gym, if I progress to the point where I need a spotter.) I'm thinking that a 175lb pair would would be more than enough for a long time. (Woohoo, new toy!) Any thoughts from you more experienced folks?

I've never used those kinds of adjustable dumbbells. I got a nice set of rubber hexes. A friend of a friend is a fitness wholesaler, so I got them for 75 cents a pound. I agree having a home gym is really nice. Have you checked craigslist or someplace?

 

[Sid]

Just curious Sid why are you not carbing up everyday?

To answer your question more fully:
After losing 80lbs, then regaining 35, then losing it again, and regaining 10, then losing it again, I'm fairly vigilant about maintaining my weight. I don't want to have to go through that all over again, and this is what seems to be working for me. However, I do like to eat, and I've cycled down so that I'm ready for today. Gobble, gobble!

 

[Sid]

I've never used those kinds of adjustable dumbbells. I got a nice set of rubber hexes. A friend of a friend is a fitness wholesaler, so I got them for 75 cents a pound. I agree having a home gym is really nice. Have you checked craigslist or someplace?

Good idea! I actually got my current pair, stand, and bench off Craigslist for a good deal. However, the warranty doesn't apply for 2nd hand owners, and there aren't too many used ones for sale locally. I figure that if I sell my old set, that should offset the cost a bit. They're compact and really nice for drop sets. Still, I need to save up a bit for them. So, I'll probably be ready for them by then.

Though, what I was really intending to ask was: is it reasonable to invest in heavier dumbbells? Or does someone need access to more advanced gym equipment to continue to progress?

 

[EnricM]

Hi,

I am following the abbreviated method now. 3 days a week, 2 ays for the "big moves" and 1 day for the rest (basically shrugs, lateral raises and lever work).

For the few ones that do not know what the abbreviated method is: It focuses on four or five "big moves"; the squat, two variants of dead lifts, bench presses and curls plus some auxiliary moves, more importantly shrugs, military presses and 'small muscle' exercises. The weight is height and the reps low. The form has to be perfect and executed slowly (3 seconds or more).

This method is as you may have guessed for increasing muscle mass. I am not concerned any more about bulking up. I plan to go step over to ultras in one or two years time and I have almost reached all the goals I wanted to reach in road racing.

What I have done to be able to use proper equipment is to sign up to my local athletics union; they have a pretty good gym and as we are all runners and field and track athletes we are all on the same frequency in regard to strength training.

At home I do my lifting barefoot as I am sure that this will also have a positive effect on the strength of my feet and thus on my running, minimalist and 'normal'.

 

[Bare Lee]

Good idea! I actually got my current pair, stand, and bench off Craigslist for a good deal. However, the warranty doesn't apply for 2nd hand owners, and there aren't too many used ones for sale locally. I figure that if I sell my old set, that should offset the cost a bit. They're compact and really nice for drop sets. Still, I need to save up a bit for them. So, I'll probably be ready for them by then.

Though, what I was really intending to ask was: is it reasonable to invest in heavier dumbbells? Or does someone need access to more advanced gym equipment to continue to progress?

I guess it all depends on what kinds of exercises you're doing. My heaviest dumbbell exercise right now is the bent-over row, for which I use a 60 lb dumbbell. I got a set of rubber hex dumbbell pairs, in five-pound increments, 20-60 lbs, for $550, about 75 cents a pound. You'll probably have to pay a bit more than that, cuz I got mine from a wholesaler at close to cost (he's a friend of a friend). But I really like the convenience of non-adjustable dumbbells, and like you say, not having to monkey with plates makes a quick progression through drop sets a lot easier (not spending a whole lot of time in between sets and exercises is a high priority for me). But the shape of those adjustable ones you're interested in looks a little awkward, although I've never actually tried them so I don't know. I just wonder if I could do all my dumbbell exercises properly with them.

If you're into machines, then a gym may be the way to go, but if you're basing your routine on free weights, then after a modest initial investment, you'll save time and money over the years having a home gym. Here's my garage gym set-up:

a bench with adjustable bars for dips & squats and a leg thing for extensions and curls, and then bench is adjustable for incline and decline presses as well,
a couple of barbells,
lots of 5, 10, 20, & 25 lb plates,
a curling bar (which I use for upright rows and pull-overs--I do my curls with dumbbells),
a bent-over rowing bar ("lat blaster"),
a basic cable machine for pull downs, seated rows, abductor/adductor stuff, and so on,
a pull-down bar back pull-downs,
a lat bar for front pull-downs,
a triangle bar for seated rows,
a pair of square handles for cross-overs
paired dumbbells up to 60 lbs (10,15,20,25, etc.),
ankle weights-- a pair of 10-pounders, and one 20-pounder
a homemade t-bar for kettlebell swings, from 3/4 plumber's pipe.
plyo boxes -- 6", 12", 18"
a sit-up bench,
a tricep rope, good also for face-pulls
a head harness for neck flexion and extensions
a couple of different sized straps for cable stuff
an old belt for doing back extensions off the bench
my foam rollers,
a jump rope (thanks to your recommendation)

I've built up the set over the years, and inherited some stuff from friends and family. The only thing I miss from the gym are cross-over cables.

Exercise gear, like kids stuff, is usually a good value used--no need to buy new. Used gear is often lightly used because someone feel off the exercise wagon shortly after buying it, and it's pretty durable--hard to break or ruin.

The advantage of having a home gym, as you know, is you can do your routine whenever time permits, and you don't have to drive anywhere so you save time. Plus you never have to wait your turn and don't have have to deal with other people's sweat or smell.

The disadvantage is you don't have any spotters, so you have to be extra careful and can't do anything to failure, as we discussed, but I don't mind that too much now that I'm getting older. I also miss the gym rat camaraderie a bit, but I get my fix for that here. I also miss the occasional eye candy, but I've always got my wife for that.

 

[Bare Lee]

They're compact and really nice for drop sets.

In that article, the writer says that

"But heavy is a relative term and a muscle that has just done 6 reps with a heavy weight will “think” a weight reduction is just as heavy."

That line jogged my memory a bit. Although I still can't remember where I read this, I think the argument against this is that when your muscle tires, you are no longer recruiting as much muscle fiber. Only when the muscle is relatively fresh and the weight is heavy is maximal fiber recruitment possible.

Once again, I have no idea if this is true or relevant, just thought I'd add it to the discussion. I know I personally get a real good pump from drop sets/pyramiding.

I did really like this line in that article:

"There is no one best way to train – period. The body will always adapt and when that happens gains will always slow. So variety is one key to progress"

 

[Sid]

Although I still can't remember where I read this, I think the argument against this is that when your muscle tires, you are not longer recruiting as much muscle fiber. Only when the muscle is relatively fresh and the weight is heavy is maximal fiber recruitment possible.

Once again, I have no idea if this is true or relevant, just thought I'd add it to the discussion. I know I personally get a real good pump from drop sets/pyramiding.

This guy seems to think that drop sets can be used to target every fiber type. However, this is beyond my current level of training.

 

[Sid]

I guess it all depends on what kinds of exercises you're doing. My heaviest dumbbell exercise right now is the bent-over row, for which I use a 60 lb dumbbell.

The heaviest weight that I use is 90lb pair for Romanian deadlifts in the back routine video. I just read that it's supposed to work the legs/gluts, but the way they do it in the video, it actually does work the back.

But I really like the convenience of non-adjustable dumbbells, and like you say, not having to monkey with plates makes a quick progression through drop sets a lot easier (not spending a whole lot of time in between sets and exercises is a high priority for me).

Definitely! Hmm... my semi-joke about wearing 2 watches makes me think that I could just keep the old dumbbell set, too. I probably would only get a few hundred for it anyway. Thanks for the idea!

But the shape of those adjustable ones you're interested in looks a little awkward, although I've never actually tried them so I don't know. I just wonder if I could do all my dumbbell exercises properly with them.

Pullovers are a bit tricky, but possible. Exercises which use both hands with a single dumbbell require slight modification of the grip.

If you're into machines, then a gym may be the way to go, but if you're basing your routine on free weights, then after a modest initial investment, you'll save time and money over the years having a home gym.

Definitely agree as well. I've had one too many little used gym memberships. With equipment, I can always get re-motivated, sometimes even a few years later! I recently managed to upgrade my bowflex to "410" lbs and reintegrate it into my routine, after it sat for 5 years in the basement of our old house.

Exercise gear, like kids stuff, is usually a good value used--no need to buy new. Used gear is often lightly used because someone feel off the exercise wagon shortly after buying it, and it's pretty durable--hard to break or ruin.

I got my Stairmaster 4000PT for a steal on Craiglist! It was sitting on someone's patio covered with dust.

The advantage of having a home gym, as you know, is you can do your routine whenever time permits, and you don't have to drive anywhere so you save time. Plus you never have to wait your turn and don't have have to deal with other people's sweat or smell.

Definitely agree here as well. It's the same reason that I run around my neighborhood, out the door and on the road with minimal time.

The disadvantage is you don't have any spotters, so you have to be extra careful and can't do anything to failure, as we discussed, but I don't mind that too much now that I'm getting older.

Dumbbells should keep me out of trouble. I not eager to drop these anyway, since my workout room is in a bonus room upstairs.

 

[Bare Lee]

This guy seems to think that drop sets can be used to target every fiber type. However, this is beyond my current level of training.

Yah, it makes sense to me. Like I said, my experience is that drop sets/pyramiding gives me a very good pump, and I feel like I get good benefit from it in strength gains. I have no idea what's actually going on with the muscle fibers. I don't do percentages like that guy though. I just drop whatever weight seems convenient. For heavier weights that's usually ten pound plates, for lighter weights it's usually in five-pound increments. Then I do however many reps I can can do at the new reduced weight, until I get down to 1-2 reps, however many sets that takes, then I reduce again. I can't really be bothered with systematizing my approach much further than that.

It's interesting reading about these guys different approaches, and it's great that you and Abide are uncovering so many great sites, but for my general fitness purposes, just a few basic principles seem to be enough. Maybe in a year or so, when I've achieved a good base-level of fitness in both my weights and running, I'll need to throw in more variation in ST training approaches. But right now all my experimental energy is focused on my running, trying to find the right combination of pace and distance work.

Two days now letting this head cold keep me from exercising and I'm already starting to go stir crazy.

Unrelatedly, have you thought about joining the mileage forum?

 

[Sid]

It's interesting reading about these guys different approaches, and it's great that you and Abide are uncovering so many great sites, but for my general fitness purposes, just a few basic principles seem to be enough. Maybe in a year or so, when I've achieved a good base-level of fitness in both my weights and running, I'll need to throw in more variation in ST training approaches.

Completely agree. I'm still working on building. I do appreciate the inspiration from more experienced people such as yourself and Abide.

With regard to those weight lifting videos that I've been doing, I think that they've picked exercises which are relatively high yield and safe. That's good with me, especially right now since I'm just starting out.

Two days now letting this head cold keep me from exercising and I'm already starting to go stir crazy.

Hope you get better soon!

Unrelatedly, have you thought about joining the mileage forum?

I do try to make a summary post at the end of each week.

 

[Bare Lee]

Completely agree. I'm still working on building. I do appreciate the inspiration from more experienced people such as yourself and Abide.

I do try to make a summary post at the end of each week.

Well, take everything I say with a grain of salt. I tend to rely on ST info only half-remembered from a long time ago. One thing I might counsel though, which hasn't come up and might never be relevant for you, is that I would try not to use gloves, straps, or belts. My philosophy is that if you can't do the weight without supports, then you shouldn't be doing it, cuz you might just be shifting the load to another spot that is less able to deal with it. Kind of like the way supportive running shoes shift the load from the lower leg to the knees and hips, although I'm not sure the analogy holds that well.

Also, sorry, I was a little tipsy last night, I recall now that you have been participating more regularly on the mileage forum, which is great to see. Your mileage is really coming up actually. I'm envious! Hopefully sometime early 2013 I'll finally be up around 25 mpw. Just got to learn to be a little more patient . . .

 

[Sid]

One thing I might counsel though, which hasn't come up and might never be relevant for you, is that I would try not to use gloves, straps, or belts. My philosophy is that if you can't do the weight without supports, then you shouldn't be doing it, cuz you might just be shifting the load to another spot that is less able to deal with it.

Thanks for the tip! I haven't used any of that stuff since high school, but it's good to know to avoid them.

Your mileage is really coming up actually. I'm envious! Hopefully sometime early 2013 I'll finally be up around 25 mpw. Just got to learn to be a little more patient . . .

Thanks! Definitely, you'll get there. We're all a work in progress. When I started 6 months ago, I was really just trying to see if I could do a half, as there was a guy at work (5 years younger) who was doing one with his gf. I've been pleasantly surprised as I'm progressing a bit faster than him. They're doing a full mary in January, but I'm going to take it easy and continue to build up my base. Maybe in a year or two, or never, no hurry!

 

[Bare Lee]

Thanks for the tip! I haven't used any of that stuff since high school, but it's good to know to avoid them.

Once again, I must offer the caveat that that's just my own thinking on the matter. I don't know if it's actually true. The power lifters all use belts, but they also tend to take steroids, so I don't think long-term consequences are a concern for them.

Thanks! Definitely, you'll get there. We're all a work in progress. When I started 6 months ago, I was really just trying to see if I could do a half, as there was a guy at work (5 years younger) who was doing one with his gf. I've been pleasantly surprised as I'm progressing a bit faster than him. They're doing a full mary in January, but I'm going to take it easy and continue to build up my base.

When you say you started six months ago, is that for running, or is it a push to building up distance? I see you've been a member here at BRS for six months longer than I have. Just curious.

Also, have you done a half already? How did it go? This last week I started looking into the half marathons held here in the Twin Cities, and I think I'd like to try one if I can get my miles up fairly soon. But I won't enter one until I can do a training run of 13 miles under two hours, I think, and that's still a ways away. I like the idea of a half marathon because unlike the 5k and 10k, it's too far to fret about speed, but not so far that you have to worry about serious training or hardship. Having run close to nine and a half miles, I don't think tacking on another four miles will be any big deal. I can see that happening in six months or less. To run a decent marathon though, that seems like it would be a couple of years away, based on my current rate of development.

Maybe in a year or two, or never, no hurry!

I wish I did have more patience, but I'm finding it hard to accept these new limitations on how fast I can build up distance. Up until my mid-forties, I never had to deal with the kind of set-backs I've been experiencing lately. I know you're supposed to learn wisdom as you age, but that doesn't seem to apply to me. Until the day I can sustain a 8mm pace for an hour, or run a half mary in less than two, it's going to be hard to stifle this urge to keep pushing. When I felt the ITBS come on Tuesday, my reaction was one of incredulity. My wife suspects witchcraft, and I have to admit, I find it easier to accept that explanation than physical limitation due to aging.

For weights on the other hand, I really don't care. I know I'll keep improving gradually, but I have no goals whatsoever. 1.5 BW for the bench press and 2 BW for the deadlift would be nice, but if I don't make it it won't matter to me. All my focus is on running right now, and that beautiful feeling of smooth motion at a decent pace.

 

[Sid]

Once again, I must offer the caveat that that's just my own thinking on the matter. I don't know if it's actually true. The power lifters all use belts, but they also tend to take steroids, so I don't think long-term consequences are a concern for them.

Heh! Point taken.

When you say you started six months ago, is that for running, or is it a push to building up distance? I see you've been a member here at BRS for six months longer than I have. Just curious.

I joined on 1/1/11. Pretty much forgot about the forum, then my first post was May 2012. I started running in college 2-3 miles tops, then on and off. Barefoot in summer 2010, slow, pokey, couch-to-5K style but taking even longer than the program. (Though I didn't know about the couch-to-5k program until recently.) Lost weight. Got up to consistent, but slow 3mi early this year, then started trying to build mileage in May 2012.

Also, have you done a half already? How did it go?

I'm not one for the crowds, fees, medals, fleeting glory. I was thinking about doing a couple of halfs, but once I got to a slow, pokey 14 miles in a training run, I got bored and never registered. I usually run 6mi in the morning, as that's all I have time for, so I've been doing that to build my base. Recently did another couple 13mi runs around the neighborhood just to see if I could do it again. If you click on "Run, Run, Run" in my sig, it will take you to my Nike page.

But I won't enter one until I can do a training run of 13 miles under two hours, I think, and that's still a ways away. ... To run a decent marathon though, that seems like it would be a couple of years away, based on my current rate of development.

I agree with you. I'm not about the glory or medals or just to say I did it. I run for fitness and enjoyment. If I get up into the 20's great, if not that's fine, too. I think once I get my base a bit stronger, I'll start trying those fartleks you keep talking about!

I know you're supposed to learn wisdom as you age, but that doesn't seem to apply to me. Until the day I can sustain a 8mm pace for an hour, or run a half mary in less than two, it's going to be hard to stifle this urge to keep pushing. When I felt the ITBS come on Tuesday, my reaction was one of incredulity. My wife suspects witchcraft, and I have to admit, I find it easier to accept that explanation that physical limitation due to aging.

My back is pretty sore today, and I didn't feel anything yesterday until at night. I'm in my late 30's and I'm feeling pretty decrepit today. Feels like witchcraft to me!

For weights on the other hand, I really don't care. I know I'll keep improving gradually, but I have no goals whatsoever. 1.5 BW for the bench press and 2 BW for the deadlift would be nice, but if I don't make it it won't matter to me. All my focus is on running right now, and that beautiful feeling of smooth motion at a decent pace.

I'm with you. Sounds like a good philosophy!

 

[Bare Lee]

I joined on 1/1/11. Pretty much forgot about the forum, then my first post was May 2012.

Yah, I signed up and then forgot about the site too. It became more enticing with the new site and software earlier this year.

Got up to consistent, but slow 3mi early this year, then started trying to build mileage in May 2012.

Wow, it's impressive you went from three miles to 13 in less than six months.

I'm not one for the crowds, fees, medals, fleeting glory.

Yah, if it weren't for my BRS interactions, I don't think racing would've even crossed my mind. But it might be fun to give it a try, maybe once or twice a year.

 

[Sid]

Yah, I signed up and then forgot about the site too. It became more enticing with the new site and software earlier this year.

Actually, I'm glad that I missed all of the drama of the transition.

Wow, it's impressive you went from three miles to 13 in less than six months.

Slow and stubborn. Took me a couple of weeks to recovery from that 14mi. Had a piece of glass in my foot for the last 3 miles. Didn't see the glass in my foot until I got home, but by that time I had been landing improperly to avoid the pain from the glass that I didn't know that I had. That overstressed other areas of my leg/foot which took 2 weeks to recover. Then I develop a better sense by reading on this forum. Took after some of your philosophy and Gentile's. No need to slog it out just for some arbitrary number. Better to work on form and consistency.

Yah, if it weren't for my BRS interactions, I don't think racing would've even crossed my mind. But it might be fun to give it a try, maybe once or twice a year.

I'd like to run a full mary one day. Have to pick the right one. One that's not too fancy or too showy with amateurs, who want to run/walk for a shiny medal, clogging up the course. Those sorts of races have their place in spreading the word, but that craziness is not for me. So, definitely going to avoid the Rock 'n' Roll and Disney ones.