Optimal strength training for runners
- Thread starter Abide
- Start date
I've tried the over the shoulder sled pull and it felt exteremely akward to run like that, for a slow pull it works fine. I think a belt or harness is the way to go for faster sled pulls.
I got that with my stubbed left big toe. I started getting PF-like symptoms in my arch, presumably from inverting my foot to avoid putting pressure on the met joint of the big toe. A little stretching, massaging, and rolling has taken care of it.
Good to hear you're about good to go in any case.
So maybe just get a dip belt and kill two birds with one stone?
BTW assisted pullups and greasing the groove are going well.
Still struggling with the dip station design. Having it just hang from the rack poses some challenges with getting the unions super sturdy. It'll be easier just to go back to my original thought and extend two legs down to the floor. It'll take up more room in storage, but it will be solid and cost less. Basically just two inverted 'L's connected to a hanging bar across the rack, secured to two flanges screwed into a 2x4" on the floor. Still, it'll cost about the same as either of the top dip stations on Amazon. http://smile.amazon.com/Ultimate-Body-Press-Dip-Stand/dp/B000ICHPIK/ref=sr_1_2?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1403514377&sr=1-2&keywords=dip station
http://smile.amazon.com/Black-Mountain-Stand-3000-Pound-Dip/dp/B00EPKRUGS/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1403514377&sr=1-1&keywords=dip station
So one begins to wonder if it's been worth the hassle. I like the Ultimate Body Press cuz it disassembles easily for storage, but everyone says the Black Mountain Stand is sturdier, and it's a little higher.
Or try something like this: http://www.mansionathletics.com/bd-...oogleAdwords&gclid=CP21uu2TkL8CFa9r7AodES4Apg
Not to be negative about your design or the links, but are you concerned about the width of the uprights? The reviews indicated they might be a little wide. You could have multiple placements on your home built one. or...
Something like this? I guess they may be a little wobbly but you could always build a 45 support to the base on one side to make them studier. They could stack out of the way too?
I think I initially hurt my shoulder doing them because I used one of those seated leg raise machines at the Y and they were naturally a little too wide for me.
Something like this? I guess they may be a little wobbly but you could always build a 45 support to the base on one side to make them studier. They could stack out of the way too?
I think I initially hurt my shoulder doing them because I used one of those seated leg raise machines at the Y and they were naturally a little too wide for me.
Idk about the dip belt either sometimes its hard to stay tight?
http://www.amazon.com/Brute-Belt-Di...sbs_sg_14?ie=UTF8&refRID=0HTHGCEGNFC79FVP74EN
This one would probably work great though.
Crap I might have to buy one of these haha.
http://www.amazon.com/Workoutz-3-In...TF8&qid=1403534585&sr=1-22&keywords=pull+sled
here is a cheaper one
http://www.amazon.com/Brute-Belt-Di...sbs_sg_14?ie=UTF8&refRID=0HTHGCEGNFC79FVP74EN
This one would probably work great though.
Crap I might have to buy one of these haha.
http://www.amazon.com/Workoutz-3-In...TF8&qid=1403534585&sr=1-22&keywords=pull+sled
here is a cheaper one
All ideas/critiques welcomed.Not to be negative about your design or the links, but are you concerned about the width of the uprights? The reviews indicated they might be a little wide. You could have multiple placements on your home built one. or...
Something like this? I guess they may be a little wobbly but you could always build a 45 support to the base on one side to make them studier. They could stack out of the way too?
I think I initially hurt my shoulder doing them because I used one of those seated leg raise machines at the Y and they were naturally a little too wide for me.
I'm aiming for 20-22" width. Seems like all the dip attachments are made for standard power racks. Mine is only three feet across, so they probably wouldn't work.
Those stands you made look good but there's no real advantage over the designs I've tried, except they'd be lighter weight.
I'm going to try a few more things this aft but I may end up just manning up and doing ring/strap dips, with a band if I need assistance at first. Then I'll have to return about $200 in failed pipe ideas. All those unions, nipples, elbows, t-joints, flanges -- really add up. If I knew how to weld this could've been easy. Hopefully I'll have some pics tomorrow.
I like those dip belts, although it will be a while before I need more than bodyweight on dips. For the sled pulls, I'm not sure if the strap would hang so low that it would hit the legs? I guess if the line is long enough . . . . Not sure about using them as squat belts; I've resisted the idea so far.
Here is that Louie Simmons article.
http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/ls14.htm
http://www.dieselcrew.com/articles-pdf/sleddraggingI.pdf
http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/ls14.htm
http://www.dieselcrew.com/articles-pdf/sleddraggingI.pdf
"General physical preparedness" = conditioning/stamina?
Always comes back to the three most basic measures of fitness: strength, stamina, endurance, corresponding to sprints, tempo, aerobic in running, and low, medium, and high rep ranges in ST.
With (running) sled pulls, I aim to develop stamina as I would with tempo-paced runs, but with shorter bursts of mental effort. Maybe also power with heavier weights, we'll see . . . .
Anyway, with your links and looking into it a bit more, seems like belts are most appropriate for running sled pulls. Here's another possibility:
http://www.roguefitness.com/sled-pulling-belt
Or, going back to the harness concept, a shoulder dolly:
http://www.amazon.com/Shoulder-Dolly-2-Person-Lifting-Moving/dp/B00022749Q
Maybe I could work in some rows or presses with the straps too, but gotta fight that tendency towards an ever-expanding fitness routine. Gotta be realistic about time and energy commitments. I'm going to stick to simple running for another week or so as I get back into shape, then start in on some of this stuff. Still seems like just hills might be enough though, and a lot less hassle to set up, as I have a great hill just two blocks away.
Good point I will probably stick with hill sprints for now as well. I already am having trouble finding the time to run anyway.
I might still pick up that belt for doing weighted pullups? $75 is a lot for a belt for only weighted pullups though.
Ha, I'm doing assisted pullups still, so weighted pullups are a long ways off, perhaps never. Even with dips, I don't know if I'll ever do weighted. Seems like bodyweight exercises are inherently higher rep/lower weight, and it's maybe not a good idea to mess with them? Probably just my own preconception.
Anyway, here's a couple of cell phone pics of my rack. The first is the joist-mounted chin-up bar. The hanging Oly clips are a little distracting.
The second is the dip bars just before I fastened the flanges into the 2x4, so it's a little wide. I haven't had a chance to tape the foam insulation yet either. I'll do that later today and maybe take a few more pics.
You can also see the wood base I made. Inside it, there are two weight stacks. I make these stacks out of flanges and nipple pipe. I think I prefer these over the usual plate racks--it ends up taking up less space because I can place them up against a wall. You can also see the landmine pivot on top of the base, attached to the rack. With a few more pics you can see the finalized set-up.
A little stiff from yesterday's run down by the river. Man, I can't believe how much my running fitness has fallen off. I think it'll take another couple of months before I can run half-marathon distances again. I'm going to use this as an opportunity to rebuild myself as a runner and just focus on shorter distances at higher paces and try to build up from there. I think that's why I'm a little sore from yesterday. I walked whenever I couldn't maintain my pace, which was a bit higher than a comfortable aerobic pace for me. Seems to me on Tuesday and Thursday's runs at least I should always be pushing it a bit.
I've been getting email newsletters from Bret Contreras. I watched this video from his latest, over lunch yesterday:
Around minute five Ernie Sr. emphasizes the importance of perfect form on the squat. So yesterday I stayed at 135 and really focused on trying to do each repetition exactly the same. I was able to get my hands in the position of the guy in this video, with the thumb above the bar, which is also the way Rippetoe recommends. Bar position on my back is still a little variable but it's solidifying. Ernie Sr. doesn't believe in a universally correct bar position like Rippetoe so I'm trying to find what works best for me, but elsewhere in the video he does say, along with Rippetoe, that ideally it should be between the shoulders and the traps, not up on the shoulders like a lot of people hold it.
After the squats, and overhead squats, more shoulder-width benching at 185. Today my left shoulder feels pretty good, so perhaps just a narrower grip on the bench press is all I've been needing. Still, I will continue the 2:1 ratio of back work to front work, until my back feels super strong and my deadlift comes up some more. The dips on my dip bar went well but I've lost some strength the last few weeks of not dipping. I think I would like my dip station to be higher and deeper though, so I might have to make one more trip to Menards. I like the smaller size for storage though.
I'm settling back into a Tuesday-Thursday-Saturday run schedule, with just one-mile run-commutes on the off-days, so I guess the daily 5k idea is dead for the time-being. I might try to resuscitate it in the winter though, when longer runs become harder.
After the squats, and overhead squats, more shoulder-width benching at 185. Today my left shoulder feels pretty good, so perhaps just a narrower grip on the bench press is all I've been needing. Still, I will continue the 2:1 ratio of back work to front work, until my back feels super strong and my deadlift comes up some more. The dips on my dip bar went well but I've lost some strength the last few weeks of not dipping. I think I would like my dip station to be higher and deeper though, so I might have to make one more trip to Menards. I like the smaller size for storage though.
I'm settling back into a Tuesday-Thursday-Saturday run schedule, with just one-mile run-commutes on the off-days, so I guess the daily 5k idea is dead for the time-being. I might try to resuscitate it in the winter though, when longer runs become harder.
I'm sure the shoulder is feeling better from the combination of things, but whatever it is its working so thats great.
I haven't followed up about the Rippetoe deadlift set-up. I tried it a few workouts and I have to say it didn't work well for me, the bar path was way out of position and light weights felt stapled to the floor. So now I am mainly focusing on pulling the slack out at set-up and keeping tight the whole lift. I am also finding taking a breathe at the top is better than between reps.
The whole 1" from the shins put the bar too far back for me. Its the same feeling I get when I try to do a low bar squat the weight just isn't centered right and it feels more like a good morning than a squat.
Honestly I wonder if it has more to do with femur length, I can squat upright and a high bar with more confidence than low bar. And it seems to be the situation for deadlifts where I like more angle on my knees and my torso upright.
Anyways yes everyone should figure out what works best for them and then drill that position.
BC had an interesting article about lifters on supplements, mainly his points about the training capacity of natural and enhanced lifters and how few training gurus are out there that are still natural.
I haven't stretched or massaged the shoulder that much for the last week or so. Like my legs, I seem to be stretching and massaging it only when I feel it. I really need to integrate a regular stretching/yoga-like routine into my day. I'm doing it a bit more now that I'm running more.
Yah, I like to keep the deadlift tight right from the start. Interesting about breathing at the top. I don't really pay much attention to breathing but I suppose I should, now, as I become increasingly more serious about form and big lifts. I was taught a long time ago to take a breath for each rep, out on the concentric portion, in on the eccentric, I think, but since you can't really use that oxygen unless you're doing high reps, it's probably best just to hold one's breath for stabilization purposes, right? So the breathing should be determined by however you get the most stabilization benefit it seems.
I've tried low-bar squats and it seems too low and unstable. So I guess I'm leaning, so to speak, towards a mid-bar position for the squats?
I read a bit of that on supplements, same newsletter right? I trained with a guy in Chicago who blew out his elbows while juicing. I'm happy to say I've never been tempted. I still have a half a canister of creatine. I suppose I should try taking that right after the st and see if it helps. A lot of people seem to think it helps a lot with recovery. I think it's categorized as a "natural" supplement, right?
I do think it's an important point though. Some of those training regimes just aren't realistic for natural lifters. It's unfortunate that they aren't more pure strength trainers who know what they're talking about. Most of the good articles on those meathead sites seem to be by powerlifters and bodybuilders and most of those guys seem to juice, so you have to filter everything they say. The whole hypertrophy / zero body fat / fake tan thing just seems stupid, but you gotta read some of what those guys have to say because they've made a science out of lifting. Still, although I don't always pay attention to who's who, it seems like I've learned more about training protocols from the powerlifters than the bodybuilders.
OK, finally got around to trying the high pulls yesterday. First I did deadlifts at higher reps x 225, as part of a new tweak to my weekly routine, which is to do deadlifts and squats twice a week, once heavy, on Mon and Wed, respectively, and once light, both on Friday. Then I alternated between Power Cleans and High Pulls, trying to get a feel for which might be more beneficial. In the end, I think it might be best to do both, which, together with the deadlifts, could be arranged in a declining scale of weight, from heavier to lighter pull: Deadlift > High Pull > Power Clean. I think I felt most comfortable taking the high pulls up to chest rather than armpit height. I'll keep experimenting for a while.
Then a couple of sets of squats. Over-the-bar hand position is feeling pretty natural now. The trick is to place the hands before getting under the bar it seems. Mid-back bar position is also solidifying I think.
I then took the dumbbell rows from 80 to 100 pounds, as per our earlier conversation. I'm thinking with dumbbell rows I won't worry about form and just go as heavy as possible, since the back is well supported by the opposite knee and hand. I definitely feel sorer today, so this may be the way to go. Problem is there's no more room for tens on my 14" dumbbell bar, so I had to use 20s or 25s, which reduces the ROM a bit.
Did seated rows then more assisted pullups--supine and neutral grip. Man, those really work the back better than pulldowns and also the biceps for some reason. I didn't get around to pulldowns or the bicep curls because my biceps already felt fried from the pullups. I'm supposed to grease the groove with a few assisted pullups today, but I think it's best just to let everything recover. Maybe tomorrow.
Finally, I did some hip thrusts using just my heaviest band. I attached it to two carriage bolts on the sides of my base. I got the idea from a video by Bret Contreras and his hip thruster apparatus. That guy is smart to specialize in training women's asses. Anyway, this set-up is a lot easier than using barbells and a foam pad and the hip thrusts seem like a good high rep finishing exercise after all the pulls and squats.
Abide, what do you think?: Should I keep including these training updates here or should I start my own thread on the training forum?
Then a couple of sets of squats. Over-the-bar hand position is feeling pretty natural now. The trick is to place the hands before getting under the bar it seems. Mid-back bar position is also solidifying I think.
I then took the dumbbell rows from 80 to 100 pounds, as per our earlier conversation. I'm thinking with dumbbell rows I won't worry about form and just go as heavy as possible, since the back is well supported by the opposite knee and hand. I definitely feel sorer today, so this may be the way to go. Problem is there's no more room for tens on my 14" dumbbell bar, so I had to use 20s or 25s, which reduces the ROM a bit.
Did seated rows then more assisted pullups--supine and neutral grip. Man, those really work the back better than pulldowns and also the biceps for some reason. I didn't get around to pulldowns or the bicep curls because my biceps already felt fried from the pullups. I'm supposed to grease the groove with a few assisted pullups today, but I think it's best just to let everything recover. Maybe tomorrow.
Finally, I did some hip thrusts using just my heaviest band. I attached it to two carriage bolts on the sides of my base. I got the idea from a video by Bret Contreras and his hip thruster apparatus. That guy is smart to specialize in training women's asses. Anyway, this set-up is a lot easier than using barbells and a foam pad and the hip thrusts seem like a good high rep finishing exercise after all the pulls and squats.
Abide, what do you think?: Should I keep including these training updates here or should I start my own thread on the training forum?
I like reading them here, I use the other as a training log but it's up to you if you want to keep your thoughts together somewhere else?
I ran across this article and found it interesting about back work.
http://asp.elitefts.net/qa/default.asp?qid=209434&tid=
Vertical Pulling
Horizontal Pulling
Shrugging/Retraction
Isometric Stabilization
Thoracic Extension
Thought it was interesting to add some complexity to the vert horizontal concept.
I ran across this article and found it interesting about back work.
http://asp.elitefts.net/qa/default.asp?qid=209434&tid=
Vertical Pulling
Horizontal Pulling
Shrugging/Retraction
Isometric Stabilization
Thoracic Extension
Thought it was interesting to add some complexity to the vert horizontal concept.
I saw those band thrusts seems interesting they remind me a lot of this
How did you like them? Better than the regular version?
I do tend to like heavier rows the back pump from them is great. They also seem to be easier on my shoulders with higher rep rows I tend to get mi or shoulder pain.
Cool, I'll keep posting here, since it's not really a training log but just comments on my/our evolving routine and development.
Yah, that added complexity is interesting and makes sense for advanced lifters, maybe even intermediate. I guess I could add thoracic extensions with the band pretty easily. I've also been pretty bad about doing shrugs but they're listed in my routine.
The problem is that I'm trying to be strict about only allowing four exercises for each Bottom, Middle, and Top segment of each workout, and even then, I rarely get to the tertiary and quadrary exercises. Maybe when I start to plateau on the squats and deadlifts, I can think about a more developed assistance lift program, but right now I'm trying to focus just on the basic movements.
Still, like the band hip thrusts, it would be easy to get in a set or two of band thoracic extensions. I guess Friday could become even more of an assistance day. So Mon and Wednesday are the basic six force/direction pairings, done heavy, then Friday I do deadlifts and squats light and then a bunch of assistance stuff? That could work, and it's already heading in that direction anyway.
I think the barbell hip thrusts are probably better as a pure strength exercise, but the bands are a lot easier to set up and work well as a high-rep finishing exercise. Since hip thrusts aren't a priority for me, I'll probably go with the latter for the time being.
For pull-throughs, what's the advantage of doing them over hinge/kettlebell swings?
Had a good run down on the track Saturday. My program of only running between 8-9mm pace seems to be bringing back my running fitness pretty well. I was really sore yesterday. I also did some half-assed sprints. It's a little too early getting back to it for full-out sprints, but maybe in a week or two. I think I'll hold off on the tire pulls for another week or two too, although I ended up getting that harness on Amazon. I just didn't like the idea of a belt interferring with the hip movements. And with a harness I'll work the stabilizers a bit more.
My wife has noticed the weight starting to come off. For me, running is much better for weight loss than st, even though a lot of recent articles say that it should be the other way around, that you should get a greater metabolic boost from st. The problem for me is that st just doesn't burn that many calories, even if it's adding muscle mass and taking up energy in recovery.
Not sure I feel like I get the exact same stimulus as hip thrusts by focusing on extending my hips by contracting my glutes on swings and goblet squats. A lot of these assistance lifts to me just seem gimmicks. Maybe I'll put together a comparison of assistance lifts to see what gets recommended the most.
Yeah haha that sets off my bullshit sensor when a fitness person says running sucks for weight loss or fat loss. To mean running is far superior to anything for weight loss even other cardio stuff like biking.
Speaking of weight loss since I have started supplementing with protein I have noticed a big diminishment of appetite. I have lost a bit of weight too or maybe juts a change in composition.
Think I am gonna sign up for a triathalon at the end of the month, probably should start swimming again...
BTW what happened to Nick?
I thought the pull-through movement looked a lot like hinge swings, not hip thrusts, but I guess all three are training the same basic hinge movement.
I agree with your assessment of assistance lifts. I tried the thoracic extensions with a band, and it's OK, but doesn't compare with deadlifting heavy, that's for sure. Over the last year or so I've really pared down the assistance stuff, partly because I didn't realize it was assistance stuff until you called it that, and I read up on it more, through your links and my own half-assed Google searches. I really like Monday and Wednesday to just be the basic Pulls and Pushes: Deadlift, Rows, Pullups, then Squats, Bench Press, and Overhead Press. If I have time leftover, I work in some assistance stuff, but now I'm intrigued by the idea of putting all assistance stuff on Friday, along with my light Deadlifts and Squats and the Plyo-pulls--High Pull & Power Clean. It could be more of a circuit training day. I could include seated rows and pulldowns as assistance, and just focus on the bentover rows--barbell and dumbell--and pullups on Monday. I dunno, we'll see.
Here's a list of assistance lifts by some leading meatheads that I ran across a while ago:
http://www.wannabebig.com/training/...cises-for-the-squat-bench-press-and-deadlift/
I think part of the whole assistance lift thing is that these internet guys have to keep up the conversation in order to draw web traffic, so they can't just talk about the big lifts over and over, and picking out different assistance lifts is one way for them to distinguish themselves as a unique brand of fitness expert, along with different rep/set schemes, ordering, or emphasizes. So Bret becomes the "glute guy" and posts endless versions of all the millions of different exercises you can use to train this or that body part. But until your main lifts stall out, really, why bother? It's just time wasted as far as I can tell. I feel like I'm making better progress now that I'm keeping it simple.
It's cool we're both reaching similar conclusions about all the interweb info out there. When my running petered out over the winter I put on 20 pounds, even though I was still lifting fairly consistently. I think running is by far the best overall exercise. Really helps my sleep, mood, and concentration much better than st too. And now I'm really enjoying reducing the aerobic running, making my runs more like workouts than leisurely jaunts. Tempo and faster paces at least two runs per week seems like the way to for me. I've known this for a while, having read about it on some of the pro-style running sites, but I have a hard time sticking to it, especially when I run first thing in the morning. So fartleks and allowing myself to take walking breaks is one way to overcome the motivational inertia.
And yeah, I think protein at every meal is key. I started doing it because it keeps my mild hypoglycemia at bay, but it's also a good appetite suppressant.
Speaking of great overall exercises, supposedly swimming tops the list, but I suck at it, and I don't like the rigamarole of indoor pools. It would be nice to live by the ocean . . .
Nick got a new job recently, so maybe that's why he's laid off for a while. I've also stopped participating regularly on the Mileage Forum, as part of my re-emphasis on numberless training. Having to report how far I ran had started to feel like an obligation, whereas before it was highly motivating. It was great Saturday down on the track. At first I tried to keep track of how many laps I had done, but then I had to duck under some shelter to wait out a shower, and then I started sprinting and going back to faster laps with walking breaks and completely lost track. Probably between 3 and 4 miles but I really don't care. With weights it's hard to remain ignorant of numbers but I've definitely gone back to not thinking about reps and sets, just going by feel again. I know numbers really keep some people motivated but for me I find them demotivating a lot of the time, making running and lifting more of a chore than recreation. That said, I'm really looking forward to trying a couple doubles at 315 later today on the deadlift . . .
That is an interesting thought about the big lifts twice a week and then the fun stuff on another day. I have 4 days left and I'll be finished with my 40 day, after I think I might do more of a play it by ear plan kind of like your idea. I really need to focus on getting in and out of the gym in 20-30 minutes a day. This might be a good way to do it.
I also looked at some thoracic extensions, and I figure I get enough of that between deadlifts and farmers walks. Actually with farmers walks you get isometric stabilization and retraction too.
I have tinkered with the plan
20 EMOM
1 or 2 reps heavy deadlift
Bench/Pullup 10 x 3 or 5 x5 superset
20 EMOM
1 or 2 reps heavy power clean
Inc Bench or Close grip/Swings/bent rows 10 x 3 or 5 x5 superset
3 x 5 squat
Press/Famers Walks 5 sets
and some ab work and maybe some pullups extra if time permits.
I don't know I kind of like the simplicity of the 40 day plan but not the routine?
