Optimal strength training for runners

[Sid]

Just found this great article.
http://www.atlargenutrition.com/blo...-alex-viada-so-you-want-to-run-and-be-strong/

Hey, this is a really nice article. Thanks!

This type of training seems like a reasonable compromise, where instead of striving for one's 100% potential in strength or endurance, one is trying for something like 90% in each. No one is going to win world records in either strength or running with this strategy, but it seems better for overall health and fitness. Sometimes I get the sense that champion runners are a bit too skinny, and powerlifters a bit bulky.

Maybe this type of training would be similar to decathletes, who are runners that are strong. Viada's strategy would be for strength-focused athletes who want to run.

If you want general fitness and weight loss, something like Pete Kemme "Functional Fitness" might work.

Hey, thanks! I checked it out a a few days ago, when you posted it. It's got a some cool exercises. I'm still a novice, so I'm going to stick with the canned workouts on video. I did a month of P90X2 a while back, which focuses more on functional fitness. It was good, but I'm doing just regular lifting now to build strength.

But on the days when I'm feeling it, I know I can push myself a bit. Same with running. I still have a very structured workout routine, but I freely deviate from it. It's just a guideline. Like you, I value staying injury-free over all else. Different way to skin the cat I guess.

I'm with you on this one, too.

 

[Sid]

Just found this great article.
http://www.atlargenutrition.com/blo...-alex-viada-so-you-want-to-run-and-be-strong/

This article had a small paragraph on nutrition. I was wondering how everyone deals with nutrition.

Having lost a lot of weight, I'm not too keen on regaining it and losing it again. (Already been there a few times.) While I did eat in a regimented manner while losing weight, I want to be able to cut loose every once in a while. Like with this rocky road apple monstrosity and pumpkin spice funnel cake.

Generally, I don't eat junk during weekdays and my glycogen levels are probably medium to lowish. However, I'll tank up about once a week with junk/sweets while eating out with family, to get it out of my system. I'm in no condition to run the next day, still digesting probably, storing glycogen, hydrating. All in all, gaining 1-1.5 pounds by that next morning. Sometimes still full, I'm in no condition to run, so I lift that day. Even after resuming a normal diet that day, I'll often gain another 1-1.5 pounds the 2nd morning after, maybe still storing glycogen and hydrating. On the 2nd morning after, I'm full of energy, and 2-3 pounds heavier, and that's when I do a long run. Fully carbo-loaded, that's when my best runs seem to occur. The morning after the run, I've dropped 2-2.5 pounds, perhaps due to loss of glycogen and water weight.

I've tried carb cycling with alternating days, and that doesn't work for me. Though, this carb cycling over a several days seems like it might work out. I'm guessing that historically, that people didn't just eat carbs all the time every day. Even in more recent history, people didn't have ice cream, candy, and soda every day, and they went to the soda shop or corner drugstore only on the weekend. While not the regimented diet of a pro athlete, I'm thinking that it might work?

Thoughts, suggestions? Thanks!

 

[Abide]

I try to eat like a vegan so I'm probably not the best person to ask, but I have had no issues eating a very high carb and moderate protein and fat diet. I usually eat 4-5000 calories a day. I also noticed that timing really doesn't matter as long as I am eating most of the day the next I feel fully recovered usually. Now if I eat cheese usually the next day I feel like crap so I stay away from it mostly.

So basically my advice would be to eat a ton of veggies and legumes; and some fruit and grains, and stay away from all added sugar if you can. For carb reloads just eat more grains and maybe a fruit smoothie. And beer is a grain so your good there .

 

[NickW]

On the 2nd morning after, I'm full of energy, and 2-3 pounds heavier, and that's when I do a long run. Fully carbo-loaded, that's when my best runs seem to occur. The morning after the run, I've dropped 2-2.5 pounds, perhaps due to loss of glycogen and water weight.

I'm still trying to process the 2-3 pounds of weight change. I don't fluctuate that much, ever. From my understanding, you are not actually putting that weight on. It takes time to actually put on that much weight. This may be the food being hard for your body to process and digest, thus sitting in your stomach longer and getting combined with your foods from the second day till it gets flushed out of your system (poop). That's not to say doing it everyday isn't going to make you gain actual weight quickly, but if you do it once a week it's not going to be a permanent weight gain, but more of just a temporary weight gain because your body doesn't know how to process it. I've also read and been told by a couple nutritionists that when peoples weight fluctuate that much, most of the time it has more to do with water and dehydration. I don't know how true this is, I'm no expert or anything but it's food for thought.

 

[Sid]

I'm still trying to process the 2-3 pounds of weight change.

I think it's due to salt, carbing up, and water. I don't usually have a lot of salty foods, except when eating out. I also usually don't have a ton of carbs, so my glycogen is probably at a medium to lowish level. I'm guessing that if my glycogen stores were already pretty high, and I ate out it, then it would probably spike my sugar and a lot of that energy would end up stored as fat.

On a side note, I have a body fat analyzer scale and handheld device. I had the handheld from a decade ago and it seems to fluctuate, so I recently bought the scale. I figure that measuring upper body and lower body will give two data points. Looking at my numbers, I'm actually seeing up to 2.5 gain (in total weight, not just fat) on the first morning after, and another almost 2 on the second morning after, even though I've resumed my normal diet and um... cleared out the gastric contents. The 2nd morning weight gain is what surprises me, but I'm thinking that's mostly water. I'm measuring about 1 pound of that 4-5 pound gain as fat, though I've read somewhere that this fat usually comes off quickly during exercise, and that does seem to be the case.

Why The Scale Lies
"Another factor that can influence the scale is glycogen. Think of glycogen as a fuel tank full of stored carbohydrate. Some glycogen is stored in the liver and some is stored the muscles themselves. This energy reserve weighs more than a pound and it’s packaged with 3-4 pounds of water when it’s stored."

 

[Sid]

I usually eat 4-5000 calories a day.

Good gosh, you must be an extremely active and relatively muscular guy. No way that I could manage those calories with my completely sedentary office job. At a slim 160, I'm hoping that with consistent activity, I can keep the fat off and build some muscle over this next year. Benched at 75%BW the other day. Thanks for the inspiration, guys!

 

[Abide]

Good gosh, you must be an extremely active and relatively muscular guy. No way that I could manage those calories with my completely sedentary office job. At a slim 160, I'm hoping that with consistent activity, I can keep the fat off and build some muscle over this next year. Benched at 75%BW the other day. Thanks for the inspiration, guys!

Nice keep up the bench it's one of my favorites. I'm more of a turd 185 on a light day and 200 when I am on creatine. It takes a lot of calories for me to run around.

 

[Sid]

Nice keep up the bench it's one of my favorites. I'm more of a turd 185 on a light day and 200 when I am on creatine. It takes a lot of calories for me to run around.

I'm really enjoying the strength training. It's quite satisfying in a completely different way.

On a side note, I think what I might be inadvertently doing with my weekly carb cycling is glycogen supercompensation, depleting glycogen then replenishing to above average levels.
Glycogen supercompensation enhances athletic performance

It seems to take more than one day for glycogen to build up. Maybe that's why I feel like my best runs occur 2 days after carbing up.
Muscle glycogen synthesis before and after exercise

 

[Abide]

Just curious Sid why are you not carbing up everyday?

 

[Abide]

Also not sure if you have read this it's related to your carb loading.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/10/101021190609.htm

 

[Bare Lee]

I'm really enjoying the strength training. It's quite satisfying in a completely different way.

On a side note, I think what I might be inadvertently doing with my weekly carb cycling is glycogen supercompensation, depleting glycogen then replenishing to above average levels.
Glycogen supercompensation enhances athletic performance

It seems to take more than one day for glycogen to build up. Maybe that's why I feel like my best runs occur 2 days after carbing up.
Muscle glycogen synthesis before and after exercise

Relatedly: http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/articlePages/article/7
"The Runner's Ultimate Nutritional Recovery Routine"

 

[Sid]

Just curious Sid why are you not carbing up everyday?

Simple answer: This is what I've found that works best for me at this time through trial and error, and error, and error.

I've pretty much tried all of the other methods without lasting success, and weekly cycling seems to help me balance these goals:
Maintain weight range, Gain muscle, Burn fat, Gain strength, Gain endurance, Eat based on appetite, Splurge when dining out with family, Not feel deprived, Be happy

Thanks for all of the supplemental reading, everyone!

 

[migangelo]

anyone read Pavel? i picked up his book "the Naked Warrior". i was looking for some new routines for body weight and plyometrics. he offered up two exercise to improve strength and explosiveness with variations on them. one armed push ups and pistols. trying to go at them but they are hard and i don't always remember.
there's one plus to them. i can do them during lecture as i sit in the back of class so i can stand on the stairs when i tire from sitting. i can just use them or the bench, if it's behind me, to work out on. he says don't work to fatigue. he has a website called dragon door which i am currently reading an article that says he left them in August. oh, he's a fan of kettle bells.

 

[Bare Lee]

anyone read Pavel? i picked up his book "the Naked Warrior". i was looking for some new routines for body weight and plyometrics. he offered up two exercise to improve strength and explosiveness with variations on them. one armed push ups and pistols. trying to go at them but they are hard and i don't always remember.
there's one plus to them. i can do them during lecture as i sit in the back of class so i can stand on the stairs when i tire from sitting. i can just use them or the bench, if it's behind me, to work out on. he says don't work to fatigue. he has a website called dragon door which i am currently reading an article that says he left them in August. oh, he's a fan of kettle bells.

I like some body weight stuff and plyometrics along with my weights. I also do some mobility stuff. Another nice body weight variation to the pistol squat is one where you kick out to the sides in between squats, with your hands on your head, to a 4/4 meter.

A lot of people recommend not working to fatigue, including your buddy Maffetone. Most serious lifters do heavy weight, 3-5 reps. That's what I do for my big muscle exercises, but on smaller muscle exercises I do somewhat higher reps.

There's a million different approaches, some novel, some tried-and-true. If you're new to ST, I would encourage you to experiment and find what works best for you. You should also check out some of the 'functional fitness' stuff, like Kemme Fitness, and see if that works for you.

 

[Sid]

i was looking for some new routines for body weight and plyometrics.

For my legs workout, I've been doing the Beachbody video Tony Horton's One on One: 4 Legs. They sell this one individually for around $25. This reviewer actually demonstrates most of the exercises, though of course not as professionally as Tony Horton. I don't know if you can do these in the back of the classroom without drawing too much attention. As for effectiveness, I get pretty sore the day after, and they do improve balance.

At some point, once I've gotten what I can out of this workout, I'll probably try the Body Beast legs workout that uses dumbbells. I can't say that any of this is optimal for running. I'm still just trying different things for my own personal workout.

 

[Sid]

A lot of people recommend not working to fatigue, including your buddy Maffetone. Most serious lifters do heavy weight, 3-5 reps.

So, when lifting, one is not supposed to work that last rep until failure? I thought that was also part of why people do drop sets? Lift the heavy weights until failure, then lighter weights until failure, or no?

Edit: From what I've just read, it seems like people recommend against training to failure as you're teaching yourself to fail. Rubbish, I'm teaching myself to reach my potential. There's also the possibility of microtears and injury, but I'm not training that hard! Even though I use dumbbells, I don't have a spotter. They are fairly fragile Powerblock Classic dumbbells, so I can't just drop them and need to reserve some energy to get them safely off my chest. However, I could see that once someone plateaus, they might need to change up their training strategy.

 

[Bare Lee]

So, when lifting, one is not supposed to work that last rep until failure? I thought that was also part of why people do drop sets? Lift the heavy weights until failure, then lighter weights until failure, or no?

Yah, that's what I learned too. I don't have a spotter right now so it's not an issue. I try for 1-2 max reps at the top of my pyramids and then reduce weight, continuing with 1-2 sets at each increment, one to three sets. I was just commenting on Mike's mentioning that Pavel recommended not working to failure. I've seen that other places too. I have no idea if the idea is valid. I read an account of why you shouldn't do it, but for all I know there's an equally compelling account for why you should. Seems to be the way it works for a lot of this stuff. So my fall back is: when in doubt, do what the pros do. Do they work to failure? I guess it's worth looking into.

 

[Sid]

I was just commenting on Mike's mentioning that Pavel recommended not working to failure. I've seen that other places too. I have no idea if the idea is valid. I read an account of why you shouldn't do it, but for all I know there's an equally compelling account for why you should. Seems to be the way it works for a lot of this stuff. So my fall back is: when in doubt, do what the pros do. Do they work to failure? I guess it's worth looking into.

From what I've read, it seems to depend on the definition of failure. I work until failure when I can do that last rep with semi-decent form. I'm getting the sense that some people are capable of working until they reach incredible hulk, adrenaline infused, lifting cars off babies, tear your pecs, type of failure. That's not what I'm not doing.

Perhaps, it's akin to some runners taking TMTS to the point of breakage and tears.

 

[Bare Lee]

From what I've read, it seems to depend on the definition of failure. I work until failure when I can do that last rep with semi-decent form. I'm getting the sense that some people are capable of working until they reach incredible hulk, adrenaline infused, lifting cars off babies, tear your pecs, type of failure. That's not I'm not doing.

When I've done it, it was with a spotter. You lift until you can't anymore, and then the spotter helps you 5-30% to get in another one-to-three reps. Oftentimes you just need to put your two index fingers under the bar to give your guy enough help to make another rep. I always thought I got good benefit from this practice, and would probably do it again once in a while if I had a spotter. Plus, spotting is one of the ways you get to know the other gym rats at a gym. Once you find someone who knows how to do it just right, helping just enough to get another rep out, but not too much, then you seek those folks out, and a friendship forms.

 

[Sid]

So my fall back is: when in doubt, do what the pros do. Do they work to failure? I guess it's worth looking into.

It seems that the powerlifters see training until failure as just another tool, when used sensibly.
http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/node/453

As long as they don't overdo it.
http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/node/849

And a scientific view.
http://muscleandbrawn.com/training-to-failure-an-inside-look/

I'm all for developing as much as you can from a technique/strategy/exercise, then moving on.