Optimal strength training for runners

[Bare Lee]

I don't know it's hard to quantify benefits of farmers walks. They seemed to be good for joint health though.

So many exercises. Maybe I could alternate one week really pushing the main lifts, and then one week make sure I do a good job hitting all the other lifts with decent intensity. Ah, the constant tweaking of one's routine . . .

Ran/walked 16 miles this morning, now I'm stiffening up. Time to stretch and then walk home for some mobility exercises playing with the kids. Temps in the 50s today. Spring is finally here it seems.

Trying to quit the daily coffee again. Wish me luck.

 

[NickW]

Trying to quit the daily coffee again. Wish me luck.

Ugh! Good luck. I keep trying to cut back to 2 cups a day again but then I seem to always sneak a third cup. Really love my coffee... When I was in military I rarely ever had coffee and I was just fine. Maybe I just need to make just enough for the wife in the mornings and no more.

 

[Abide]

I thought about it a couple of times for a few seconds.

Its tough not to stiffen up after running long. The only thing that works is to keep moving but you are tired then.

Oh speaking of which I am running a marathon next weekend. Its my first road race in years and I have a few solid 3 mile runs completed in preparation. Its gonna be a rough one.

 

[Abide]

Ok now that I have weights I'm trying to set up a training plan. It's difficult because now I am putting in 100-150 miles a week on the bike commuting and mountain biking. I would love to simultaneously, get my running back to 20-30 miles a week, lift 3 times a week and do 2-3 sessions of yoga for 30 minutes.

I do like timed sessions and I found a good app to set these up. It keeps me focused so I might try to use them extensively. I am probbaly going to give up some strength goals and really only push the deadlift and press. Should try to lose some weight too. 200 is great for lifting but not so good for running and biking. I probably should set up a 6 week cycle to start out with...to be continued.

 

[Abide]

I was also thinking about farmers walks and why people rave about them. You get a lot of comments like this but there doesn't necessarily seem to be any reasoning.
"The Game Changer
Tapping into the right movement can radically change your body.
Find that missing ingredient and you'll build more muscle faster, drop fat quicker, and kick any ass on any field of play. And I'm going to tell you what that missing ingredient is for most weight-trained men. Ready?
It's the loaded carry.
The loaded carry does more to expand athletic qualities than any other single thing I've attempted in my career as a coach and athlete. And I do not say that lightly."

Here is a decent one that has a few good ideas. It's basically a bosu ball that works!
http://warriorsstrength.wordpress.com/2012/05/31/farmers-walk-the-hardcore-corrective/

Now my elementary opinion is they tend to work so well mainly due to do to extended time under tension while performing a natural movement. Like I said before I think its one of those excercises that is beneficial for your entire musculoskeletal system. I also think it may be more beneficial to bikers than runners but it definitely seems like its a good tool for most endurance minded people.

Maybe I'll email DJ and see if I can get a scientific explanation.

 

[Bare Lee]

I was also thinking about farmers walks and why people rave about them. You get a lot of comments like this but there doesn't necessarily seem to be any reasoning.
"The Game Changer
Tapping into the right movement can radically change your body.
Find that missing ingredient and you'll build more muscle faster, drop fat quicker, and kick any ass on any field of play. And I'm going to tell you what that missing ingredient is for most weight-trained men. Ready?
It's the loaded carry.
The loaded carry does more to expand athletic qualities than any other single thing I've attempted in my career as a coach and athlete. And I do not say that lightly."

Here is a decent one that has a few good ideas. It's basically a bosu ball that works!
http://warriorsstrength.wordpress.com/2012/05/31/farmers-walk-the-hardcore-corrective/

Now my elementary opinion is they tend to work so well mainly due to do to extended time under tension while performing a natural movement. Like I said before I think its one of those excercises that is beneficial for your entire musculoskeletal system. I also think it may be more beneficial to bikers than runners but it definitely seems like its a good tool for most endurance minded people.

Maybe I'll email DJ and see if I can get a scientific explanation.

Thanks for the link, very informative. Maybe I can walk forward in my garage and then backwards a bunch of times, or maybe having to turn around with a load would be good too. I may even get up the gumption to walk outside. My neighbors already think I'm a barefoot weirdo who says silly things to their kids, so why not? In any case, you've talked me into it, I'll take the farmer's walks more seriously and see how it feels.

I like your marathon preparation. I guess you're banking on muscle-memory. I've been able to get the distances back up fairly quickly, but I still need to stop and stretch or walk sometimes. No way I could do a marathon straight.

I actually feel better already without the caffeine, but it's going to be a few more days at least until I can work as well.

 

[NickW]

Hey so got a question for you all. Almost everytime I do deadlifts (bent knee) I end up with problems with my hamstrings. It took about 6-7 months for my last hamstring problem to heal. Well, today doing deadlifts I felt fine and like I wasn't overdoing it, but afterwards I feel as if I may have pulled my right hamstring. Do you all think this could be form related? Or could it just be tight muscles causing the problem?

 

[Bare Lee]

Hey so got a question for you all. Almost everytime I do deadlifts (bent knee) I end up with problems with my hamstrings. It took about 6-7 months for my last hamstring problem to heal. Well, today doing deadlifts I felt fine and like I wasn't overdoing it, but afterwards I feel as if I may have pulled my right hamstring. Do you all think this could be form related? Or could it just be tight muscles causing the problem?

Sorry Nick, no idea. I've never had hamstring problems. Once or twice I felt a little soreness in my kneecap doing deadlifts. The secret with heavy lifts is to build up to them very slowly, have exacting form, and try to stay in the 3-5 rep range for the most part. You already know that, and were probably going light, but just in case. Of course, sometimes going too light can be a problem too; without enough resistance, one's form can get off.

Do you have a history of hamstring issues? Do you do other hamstring exercises like Good Mornings or Leg Curls? As you know, for me, stretching out the hammies good is key to just about everything. And I always stretch them out in between dead lifts sets, and sometimes squat down for several minutes too, to make sure everything is good and loose, before my next set. Definitely don't want to do deadlifts when you're tight. That's a good recipe for pulling something. Right now, I'm lucky, because I almost always run a mile right before lifting, which is just the right amout to warm up.

 

[NickW]

Sorry Nick, no idea. I've never had hamstring problems. Once or twice I felt a little soreness in my kneecap doing deadlifts. The secret with heavy lifts is to build up to them very slowly, have exacting form, and try to stay in the 3-5 rep range for the most part. You already know that, and were probably going light, but just in case. Of course, sometimes going too light can be a problem too; without enough resistance, one's form can get off.

Do you have a history of hamstring issues? Do you do other hamstring exercises like Good Mornings or Leg Curls? As you know, for me, stretching out the hammies good is key to just about everything. And I always stretch them out in between dead lifts sets, and sometimes squat down for several minutes too, to make sure everything is good and loose, before my next set. Definitely don't want to do deadlifts when you're tight. That's a good recipe for pulling something. Right now, I'm lucky, because I almost always run a mile right before lifting, which is just the right amout to warm up.

Ya I keep it pretty light, only 115 lbs. I do have a history (as an adult in my 30's anyhow) of muscles being tight. I'm thinking I may need to focus more on stretching right now than lifting, as least in the lower body.

 

[Abide]

I'm not a coach so take this with a grain of salt... you might be doing more of a straight legged deadlift. Try dropping your hips down further at the start and initiate the lift with your legs vs. your back. You should feel it a little more in the quads with this method. Also you might want to consider a sumo/modified sumo style deadlift depending on your anatomy. Basically widen your legs till comfortable and keep your grip inside your legs if you know what I mean. I can lift way more with this method, but I primarily do the traditional lift for some reason?

Btw straight legged deadlifts are a great way to build flexibility in the hamstrings. Keep your back right and you will feel it.

 

[NickW]

Ya I've done the straight legged deadlifts too and I had stopped them because they really hurt. I will try your suggestions though and see if they help. Thanks Abide.

 

[Bare Lee]

I don't know if there's any exercise that I'd do it with locked knees or elbows. Even the straight-arm pulldown I do with slightly bent elbows.

My hammies are really tight this morning. Massive stretching is helping, along with rolling the calves and feet. Now I'm thinking of getting a stretching apparatus of some sort. I use furniture glides up against a wall, but it's hard to lock into a position and read.

Hit 305 DL this morning, 1 rep, 2 sets, then 5-6 reps at 285 and 225 pyramiding down, a coupla sets each. I feel like I get the most benefit in the 3-5 rep range, but it's nice to hit the 1rep maxes on the heavy lifts too. I think when I reported I failed at 285 last week, it may have been 305. I probably miscounted the plates. I get up to 225 with my bar and 25-lb plates, then add 20-lb plates. Should probably get a few more 25-lb plates, but I kinda like pyramiding up and down in lesser increments after I hit 225.

Here's a link my brother sent this morning, for your viewing pleasure: http://www.t-nation.com/training/the-best-exercises-period

Endorses most of the things we've been discussing lately.

 

[Abide]

Thanks, I was gonna skip it as I am not a big fan of his but read it anyways and was reminded of the snatch grip high pulls. I was looking for something like that while I am waiting for my trap bar to get here.

Nice job on the deads. Yeah straight legged DL are more a of slightly bent leg DL. A straight back position is more important for these.

 

[Abide]

I feel the same way Nick. I always ignored squats, and rebelled against the notion of doing something I didn't like just because it's good for you. But I'm starting to dread the squats a little less these days, especially as my form and balance improves.

I think all heavy lifts require extra motivation, both physically, because they use more muscle mass, but also mentally, because they require a lot of coordination, balance, focus, and effort. It's so much easier just to yank on cables. The heavy lifts are performances.

You also mentioned lunges. I've been even worse about those, but I did my plyometrics/mobility workout a few hours ago, and did lunges using my medicine ball with a twisting pullover motion, side-to-side. Oh yeah . . . mos' excellent! I can feel it in my butt and quads and obliques and back.

I'm starting to think plyometrics/mobility-type exercises need to be about equal to my running and st time, if I really want to be generally fit. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to work them in though. Twice a week, full sessions? Or 10-15 minutes a day, just a few exercises each time?

Ya Lee I despise lunges and they really hurt my knees, so I refuse to do them. I agree about plyometrics, but I am only introducing one day a week of those. Only so much time during the week and I want to run 4 days of it. Really interested in the long term benefits/negatives of my new workout schedule. First week in so I don't really know yet, but I think I may have been doing too much weights before which held me back from my goal of losing weight. The plan is Mon run, Tues weights, Wed run, Thurs plyo, Fri run, Sat run & weights (if time permits).

Stealing some of this conversation, and putting it here. I tend to get lost on the other thread once that thing grows.

Its definitely a good topic and I wonder if there is a simple point system you could assign to fit in a week of work and to make sure you don't overdo it, like weight watchers.

Something like
8 sprints = 45 minute easy run = 1 max attempt lifting = 20 minutes plyometrics = 45 minutes of yoga

Well maybe that is too simplistic.

I've read before to do box jumps between sets in squats, something about the heavy squats being complimentary to doing max jumps. For easier plyo's you can always stick them in your warmup?

Nick give it a good 6-8 weeks before you make any judgements about it. Its good to give them ample time to see if there really are any benefits.

 

[Bare Lee]

Stealing some of this conversation, and putting it here. I tend to get lost on the other thread once that thing grows.

Its definitely a good topic and I wonder if there is a simple point system you could assign to fit in a week of work and to make sure you don't overdo it, like weight watchers.

Something like
8 sprints = 45 minute easy run = 1 max attempt lifting = 20 minutes plyometrics = 45 minutes of yoga

Well maybe that is too simplistic.

I've read before to do box jumps between sets in squats, something about the heavy squats being complimentary to doing max jumps. For easier plyo's you can always stick them in your warmup?

Nick give it a good 6-8 weeks before you make any judgements about it. Its good to give them ample time to see if there really are any benefits.

Ha! I was thinking the same thing, about how this conversation needs to be on this thread.

A point system might work, but I think I'll continue to proceed by feel. I haven't worn a Garmin in months on my out-n-back runs, and I'm questioning my recent interest in having max weight goals for my heavy lifts. In the past, I've let the progress come to me. I don't really like the idea, for example, of needing to add 30-50lbs to my deadlift in order to reach ExRx's 'intermediate' level. The feeling of getting a little bit stronger each week is probably good enough.

For the plyometrics also, I can just feel that I need to be doing them more. Today my calves are sore from the bench hops, but otherwise, I like how the soreness is evenly distributed throughout my body, and very light. I don't know how much more I will do plyometrics per week (right now the plan is two full sessions per week), but I figure I'll figure that out as I go. One thing for sure, plyometrics requires a kind of fitness that I haven't attained through weights and running.

Then there's yoga. Since I think of yoga as stretching, my first take on it is to try to do 10-15 minutes of it per day, as work breaks, for general flexibility. I'm not interested in the spiritual element for the time being. That's why I got the Anatomy of Yoga book, because I'll be approaching it more as a fitness component than spiritual practice.

And yeah Nick, I agree with Abide: give the squats at least two months. I started doing heavier squats a month or two ago, and they're just now starting to feel semi-solid, and therefore more enjoyable. I really like how the pushing force complements the pulling force of the deadlifts. If you don't like weighted squats, just do body-weight squats at higher reps. There's tons of variations on the body weight squats--jump squat, Cossack squat, single-leg squat, four-count squat, etc.

My wife recently complimented me on my butt too. Which is a first, and counts double coming from an African.

 

[NickW]

Ya I had planned on giving the whole schedule a couple months, assuming the work situation doesn't change and interfere. I used to do squats a lot back in my military days and I know they are good for me, but I still just don't like them much. Leg exercises in general I tend to have not a lot of love for. Alright, well, time to get out the door to go to a VA appointment. Thanks for all the advice you two.

 

[Bare Lee]

Ya I had planned on giving the whole schedule a couple months, assuming the work situation doesn't change and interfere. I used to do squats a lot back in my military days and I know they are good for me, but I still just don't like them much. Leg exercises in general I tend to have not a lot of love for. Alright, well, time to get out the door to go to a VA appointment. Thanks for all the advice you two.

Yah, I hear you. I never used to like leg stuff, I always figured running was enough. Then I started doing deadlifts and power cleans in karate, and now I'm doing squats too. But with Deadlifts and Squats, I feel like my back gets just as much of a workout as my legs. And I'm all about having a strong backside these days.

Also, doing the lunges while doing twisting pullovers with a medicine ball makes those more of a full-body exercise too. I start with my 30-lb ball held with two hands on the side of the kneeling leg, then twist pulling it over above my head while I'm executing the lunge. I get in 4-5 lunges before I have to turn around. I can't believe how much I was getting into lunges yesterday. Today I'm a bit stiff, that's for sure. The twisting pullovers really work the obliques or whatever all the muscles that help you twist are called.

Heck, I'm even doing burpees finally.

Basically, I'm trying to expand my repertoire of dynamic exercises that still involve some resistance training, all part of my MINT (Medium Intensity Non-interval Training) program. It's going to take a few months to start getting fit with these. I think of it as the mortar holding running and ST blocks together, or the sauce that binds veggies and meat (ST) to a nice pasta (running/cardio). Then the stretching/yoga is the seasoning I guess, or the stucco in the first analogy.

Anyway, good luck at the VA. I hope your local VA has good people in it.

Man, I'm asleep at the wheel today without my coffee. Is it OK if I spend the day just reading the Onion? I keep falling asleep with a book in my hands.

 

[NickW]

Yah, I hear you. I never used to like leg stuff, I always figured running was enough. Then I started doing deadlifts and power cleans in karate, and now I'm doing squats too. But with Deadlifts and Squats, I feel like my back gets just as much of a workout as my legs. And I'm all about having a strong backside these days.

Also, doing the lunges while doing twisting pullovers with a medicine ball makes those more of a full-body exercise too. I start with my 30-lb ball held with two hands on the side of the kneeling leg, then twist pulling it over above my head while I'm executing the lunge. I get in 4-5 lunges before I have to turn around. I can't believe how much I was getting into lunges yesterday. Today I'm a bit stiff, that's for sure. The twisting pullovers really work the obliques or whatever all the muscles that help you twist are called.

Heck, I'm even doing burpees finally.

Basically, I'm trying to expand my repertoire of dynamic exercises that still involve some resistance training, all part of my MINT (Medium Intensity Non-interval Training) program. It's going to take a few months to start getting fit with these. I think of it as the mortar holding running and ST blocks together, or the sauce that binds veggies and meat (ST) to a nice pasta (running/cardio). Then the stretching/yoga is the seasoning I guess, or the stucco in the first analogy.

Anyway, good luck at the VA. I hope your local VA has good people in it.

Man, I'm asleep at the wheel today without my coffee. Is it OK if I spend the day just reading the Onion? I keep falling asleep with a book in my hands.

Hey thanks Lee. Ya this is for the voc rehab which meant I had to travel all the way up to downtown Portland. Turns out I looked at wrong va reminder card so I am here a half hour early. The va here is ok, but they really don't go out of their way to help. I have a lot of hard feelings though after they supposedly lost my medical records while they were being converted from paper copies to digital. Conviently screwing me out of getting my back and several other problems covered. Anyhow, enough of that. Hopefully this voc rehab will help though and then I guess I'll consider VA and me square.

 

[Bare Lee]

Now my elementary opinion is they tend to work so well mainly due to do to extended time under tension while performing a natural movement. Like I said before I think its one of those excercises that is beneficial for your entire musculoskeletal system. I also think it may be more beneficial to bikers than runners but it definitely seems like its a good tool for most endurance minded people.

OK, did my deadlifts (Bottom Pull) workout yesterday. The deadlifts themselves felt good, a little more solid than last week, pyramiding up to and down from 3 sets of 305 x 1rep. Might do two reps of max weight next week, but it's at the bottom of the return that I feel the most stress on my lower back, so it's always tempting just to bring the bar back to the floor, although at 285, 5-6 reps is fine.

Then Tipping Bird which is still difficult for me balance-wise, but is definitely something I want to keep and get better at, and eventually do with more weight once my balance improves. Right now I just use two 25-lb dumbbells.

Then the Farmer's Walk with two 60-lb rubber hex dumbbells. I walked back and forth in my garage 4-5 times. Maybe 80-100 feet? My grip was the first thing to go. I did three sets. I like the exercise as a finisher.

The lunges I will probably leave off as I'm now doing them in my Plyometrics/Mobility routine using a medicine ball with a twisting pullover motion.

I also left off the t-bar squat swing (a.k.a. kettlebell swing). Are you still doing those? I just don't see the benefit and it puts some pressure on the lower back. Maybe I'm not getting the hip movement right?

On this morning's 3 miler, my form felt incredibly solid, and I felt myself getting stronger and faster towards the end. I think all the lower body strength training is helping make me a better runner, which is what this thread is all about, right?

 

[Abide]

That's the idea! Yep grip always seems the first to go on Farmer's walks, once I get my hex bar I am considering doing them a little different. The first portion will be till I can't grip it and then to keep going as long as you can with straps. I think repeated sets are good for grip work but I have a fear of causing carpal tunnel or something? And I too usually do them last.

I just bought a 70lb. kettlebell to do them, so I plan to, if I keep the reps to 25 or under I don't feel them in my back. Dan John has a good tutorial on tnation http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/the_metabolic_swing&cr=

Did you start using a belt? You are doing weights at the point I would never do beltless now. I like my back too much!