NRR- And I thought posting in a shoe forum stirred the hornets' nest...

[ajb422]

 I completely agree on the

I completely agree on the standardized test issue. They are bs and the fact that teachers have to teach to them is part of what is very very wrong with the educational system. But that isn't the same thing as no homework. That is a bunch of busy work nonsense homework that teaches nothing and wastes both student and the teachers time.

I actually am not against homeschooling at all. I'm only against it when it is done wrong. I've had friends who did their entire high school curriculum the night before the test. That tells me there wasn't enough information learned, because I NEVER could of learned all of my math, science and history overnight even if I was a genius. I've also had friends who were much smarter than average because of the freedom they were given. Again though they all had a pretty strong curriculum taught by someone who knew how to teach. I don't think every homeschooler lives to the stereotype that you mentioned. Sure many do, but I've met more who I never knew where homeschooled until they told me. I'm sorry if I sounded like I was against home schooling. I very much would consider doing it if I had a kid that was anywhere outside of mediocre, because that really is what our schools are designed (by the government) to produce. Students who have trouble in school or students who excel in school are both hurt by our system. And in a few cases this is the high school teachers fault, in most cases its the fact that they are forced to teach classes like the one you mentioned above and just give up.

Also many of the home schooled students, in my opinion, don't have a jaded attitude simply because they are kept away from people who think school isn't fun. They never learn that school is actually work, and that comes from having parents who teach them learning is fun. But those same principles can be applied to kids who are in school, it just takes more work since you are fighting what most of their friends are telling them. My parents managed to pull it off though. I don't think I ever learned that school isn't fun....guess thats why I'm still here

I think I come at this from a very different attitude than most because I and the majority of my current friends were failed by the system in the opposite direction. We weren't given enough homework, enough challenge, enough learning. Our parents filled in alot of gaps, but the schools should of taught all of us more when we still had the the ability to learn more faster. I even took a bunch of college classes on top of my AP classes to fill in gaps. Now we are all in our mid 20s and learning is harder. I know if I had been taught everything I was taught in undergrad in high school and grad school in undergrad, I'd of learned it faster, easier and be a much better contributor to the field. All you have to do to see this is look at the chinese students in our grad classes, they BLOW us away on tests because they learned everything 3 years earlier. But people forget for every child that is complaining about homework there are also the quiet ones in the back wishing for more because this stuff is just too easy. Of course say that and you'll get the shear fiery hatred of all your high school friends coming down on you. Sometimes I wish more of us would have though, it makes more of an impact coming from a high schooler than coming from an adult who just remembers feeling that way.

 

[Last Place Jason]

Agreed- the current system

Agreed- the current system does an equally bad job with both high and low acheiving students. Public schools have a duty to provide education to all students, which covers results in huge variations. It is logistically impossible in the current system to provide a quality education to everyone, especially after the inclusion movement. In any given classroom, the teacher is forced to take a middle-of-the-road approach. This leaves the top and bottom kids behind. Furthermore, the teacher's attention is invariably consumed by the kids that present bevaior problems.

My problem- schools (teachers, administrators, and everyone else involved) constantly try tweaking the current system to find a magical cure. It hasn't worked in the past; it's not going to happen in the future. The only solution is radical change, which the system itself is designed to prevent. It's frustrating.

 

[jschwab]

Jason, I have very little

Jason, I have very little patience any more for teachers. I have been working in education advocacy for 10 years and, even before I had kids and thought deeply about these issues, I had developed a very intense aversion to working with teachers or former teachers in the advocacy work that I do. The amount of negative energy than can be brought by one cynical and jaded educator can become a vortex of soul sucking darkness for anyone who wants real change and real learning. I have never met an actual public school teacher with the kind of clarity of focus on the real problems as you have - I hope you do not lose it. I don't always read your blog posts since I probably agree with roughly everything you say, but I think you are an important resource. Please do not get discouraged.

My kids are in a hybrid system. They go to a for profit cyber public charter school (free to us) and we have control over their learning with support of curriculum and teachers from the school. But it is public school and there are the issues of teaching to the test, etc. Fortunately, the actual schoolwork takes little time and then we are free to do other things that expand on their learning. If I were home, I might do something a little more unstructured but my mom has agreed to homeschool my kids, and this suits her and us for now. And I am agreed on pushing math and science more forcefully - I lacked that and felt failed by my schools.

I used to support the defense of traditional public schools and the teacher's unions, but they just make me very angry now. If the unions really wanted to be effective, they would start membership drives in charter schools, instead of just harping on how charter schools are no good. The future is here and, in my 'hood, the future is moms who had babies as teens who themselves lack a high school diploma calling BS and pulling their kids and homeschooling them. When it gets to that point that the most vulnerable families at the lowest end of the socioeconomic ladder have no trust that teachers with Masters degrees can do a better job than they can do, you just have a complete collapse of faith in the system to provide any kind of education for children.

I met a grandmother who had taken in her kids after the parents abdicated responsibility (drugs, prison, whatever). She had a little vacant lot garden vegetable garden. As she put it, "the children work in the garden during the day, and do their lessons at night". What a wonderful life!

 

[miker]

We started homeschooling our,

We started homeschooling our, now 16 yr old, when he was in the second grade. He was enrolled in a private school and had a kindergarten teacher that was frustrated because he would move around to explain things to other kids, and because he "made things out of the name tag on his desk". Then, in first grade, his (fresh out of college) teacher wanted us to check him for ADD. Nope, doc says he's just a young boy.

My wife wanted to try homeschooling. I said "what about socialization"? This "knock" on homeschooling reminds me so much of "what about stepping on glass?" These are standard societal questions asked by people who are looking to reinforce their paradigms. But in the light of reality, hold little validity. My boys are in church youth groups, church choirs, boy scouts, 4-H, competitive swim clubs, competitive soccer clubs, and a homeschool book club. The main difference I find in home schooled socialization vs. public school socialization is that most homeschool socialization is "adult supervised". I, personally, am comfortable. Others may not be.

Another correlation between HS & BFR is that neither of these are for everyone (or every family). If public/private school is working for your kids. kudos! If they aren't, homeschooling is one "option" available. That's all it is. Just a different way of educating our children.

I found it interesting in "Born to Run", that the indian school he visited sent the children on a 6 mile run first thing in the morning. I've often thought how different our schools would be if kids had that kind of energy burn before they were set down for school.

When I have conducted "Boards of Review" in our Boy Scout Troop, I find the homeschooled boys to be much more comfortable answering my questions and interacting with the other adults, than the boys who go to public school (and I think talk to adults as little as possible). From personal experience, with these boys, I'm telling you this is night and day!

Growing up, I had good teachers and teachers who were just putting in their time. Good teachers are truly a gift and a blessing. Bad teachers give the profession a bad rap (like most bad "anything").

I am fortunate to be in a small, family-owned business, where we bring our sons to work with us (I call what we do home/work school). But my boys see what it is like to be self-employed. Not that they will choose this path, but hopefully whatever they do, they will be willing to do whatever needs to be done. They are aware that just because someone has a position of authority, doesn't mean they are too good to make coffee, talk to customers, or even clean restrooms.

My wife & I chose this lifestyle, because it fits what we want and how we want to raise our children. I know this wouldn't be for everyone (much like homeschooling or barefoot running), but it works for us.

I have met homeschooled children that I thought would be better off in a structured school setting, but I have also seen many young boys, that were medicated most of their waking hours, that I wonder how they would fare with a good 6 mile run first thing in the morning.

Every year kids get less recess/active time, and more homework. Teachers have to teach to the lowest common denominator. I understand that, and I wonder what the system could be like if we didn't use it as "daycare" and "surrogate parenting", but to truly educate kids who wanted to learn. Crazy, I know...

 

[ajb422]

I think alot of the problems

I think alot of the problems with teachers are because of the amount of work and schooling it requires for a very very small paycheck in comparison. Most high school teachers end up with masters degrees either before or shortly after starting work, but they are not paid like most people with masters degrees. However they put up with so much more bs than if they were to get a different sort of job with their degree.

For example if I were to leave grad school now with the masters I hold I could go work at a high school for a measly 30,000 or so starting pay, or I could go to a community college and get paid a few thousand more, not have to deal with parents, not have to worry about who is smoking outside between classes, not have to chaperone dances ect...... Or even simpler I could go get a job at a chemical company making 50-60K a year and have next to no responsibility for anything but my own research and have no outside work. In the VAST majority of cases where are the most qualified applicants going to end up? I know way too many people who only became teachers because everything else they had planned sort of....fell through. Of course this isn't always the case. There are always a few that have always wanted to teacher, are completely qualified, care and are wonderful educators. But those aren't the ones you are talking about Jschwab. Its just hard to attract the brightest and best when you are working for next to nothing. Even the people who become teachers because they really really care are probably going to be able to get jobs in high level prep schools. And why wouldn't they? The pay is better and they are teaching kids who actually care because their parents have instilled the importance of education in them.

I LOVE teaching. And based on my evaluations I'm good at it, but after I'm done in school and teaching is no longer part of my own education I probably will never do it again. When choosing between two different jobs I love equally of course I'm going to take the one that provides me and my family with the best opportunities. Until people realize that we have to provide people with more incentives to be teachers and simultaneously get rid of the bad ones (which is next to impossible to do in the current system) you are always going to have those few really good teachers that stand out amongst the terrible instead of the other way around. The whole thing is really sad actually. I have had some amazing teachers though. Three of them in high school stand out as being awesome. One of them I fully credit (after of course my parents) with setting me up to be successful in life. So just like one teacher can be a vortex of soul sucking darkness, a different one can completely and totally undo that vortex.

 

[miker]

ajb, I agree. I think the

ajb, I agree. I think the system is broken, but the money (teachers union) just wants to throw more money at the current system. Which won't fix a thing. Wouldn't it be grand to be like some countries where teachers are almost revered? And pay them well. Maybe free college if they teach for "x" years? There are a lot of ideas out there, but they hit the wall and can't get past the status quo. When I look at the resources we have (as a country) and see how we "treat symptoms" instead of "curing", it just gets my goat. (not sure where that cliche' comes from, but it sounds like it fits). ;-)

 

[Last Place Jason]

Blaming teacher unions is a

Blaming teacher unions is a popular activity these days, and a bit of a simplification of the financial problems in education. If it weren't for unions, teachers wouldn't be paid well. Neither would administrators. Unions exist where workers are exploited. There's a good reason the foreign auto companies don't have unions... employees see no need. Walmart is a different example- they're just a bunch of d-bags.

I think paying teachers more isn't necessarily the answer. Teaching takes some pretty specialized skills- namely dealing with a lot of kids all day long. Some people have it, so don't. The people that have that skill aren't primarily motivated by money (generalization).

Here's my radical solution in the exact opposite direction- decertify teaching, make it a volunteer job (no pay). Eliminate administrators, replace with a democratic system where everyone in the school has a voice. Yes, that means I will be out of a job, but it would solve many of the problems we have today. ;-)

 

[ajb422]

Last Place Jason

Here's my radical solution in the exact opposite direction- decertify teaching, make it a volunteer job (no pay). Eliminate administrators, replace with a democratic system where everyone in the school has a voice. Yes, that means I will be out of a job, but it would solve many of the problems we have today. ;-)

Isn't that what home school groups are already ?

 

[jschwab]

I agree - that IS where we

I agree - that IS where we are moving with homeschooling.

I think I was thinking less that teachers were not professionally capable, but more that they are so in the system that they cannot really understand nor advocate for what kids really need.They are so caught up in it that they cannot imagine what truly liberated students would look like - what would happen if they just stopped teaching for a week.

But there is alot of not very competent teachers out there, too, for sure.

I lived with a high school teacher in Switzerland for a year. Sometime in the first week I was there, I was home around noontime when she waltzed in one day. I asked if she had a half day and she was confused. Turns out, high school teachers in that canton taught 3 class periods per day like college professors and were free to do whatever they wanted the rest of the time - no monitoring lunch, no coaching sports, no study hall. It was amazing.

 

[stomper]

Jason, interesting piece. 

Jason, interesting piece. Made me think a lot about my own kid, who's just entered kindergarten, and yes, HAS HOMEWORK. He actually likes doing it, and suggests doing it if there's nothing else to do, but it's clear still that he really needs and craves unstructured time. The school program he's in is quite popular and he won a lottery spot to get in it, but that doesn't mean it's giving him time to play.

Here's a dialog I recently had with him (to try to ferret out material for an upcoming parent teacher conference). I was trying to keep it light. We had just made a fire in the fireplace and the boy was laying on his back on the floor, his soles about 18 inches from the coals, where he likes them.

me: So, buddy, what's your favorite part of school?

boy: Recess.

me: What about recess?

boy: I mean recess when it's outside [on the playground] or in the gym.

me: Isn't it always outside or in the gym?

boy: Sometimes it is too cold and we have to stay inside and do centers. [this is odd, it doesn't get really cold that much in Portland]

me: Are those the days you get in trouble?

boy: [sheepishly] Yeah..

I haven't had a chance to talk in detail to the teacher yet, so I'm not sure what she's getting at, with all these "centers" and the homework packs we get. But my impression from listening to the school principal speak is that they are very concerned with test scores, and there is a fear the kids in my son's program (which is a near-full-time language immersion program) will look bad, or "only average," when they take their first standardized tests in English. It's a totally artificial concern that totally ignores the fact that these kids are beginning to function in a completely different language, and obviously getting there has developed their minds, possibly in many interesting and positive ways.

No need to debate the merits of language immersion programs. All I'm trying to say is my kid really craves this unstructured time, and there's no question it's a low priority for the school. Sounds like I'll have some questions to ask when this conference rolls around...

 

[Last Place Jason]

Janine- you hit the nail on

Janine- you hit the nail on the head. Almost everyone involved in the education system, from parents to administrators, parents to children, cannot imagine a different way of doing things. This results in a weird sort of group-think... stupid ideas get heavily promoted. Part of that problem is the idea of "expertise"... educators spend all their time learning about best teaching methods and practices without considering that the fundamental premise that the underlying system itself isn't designed to really educate kids.

ajb- Yes... my own education utopia would use homeschooling as a model for public schools. The obvious missing link is parents. The problem- some parents can't (or in many cases won't) make sacrifices for homeschooling. The trick becomes using school as a conduit for learning without becoming a synthetic family.

Stomper- Standardized tests as required by No Child Left Behind has put tremendous pressure on schools. If a school doesn't make Annual Yearly Progress (improvement on test scores, etc.), they get punished (it's a complicated process, but that's the gist of it) by having to offer more services, allowing kids to move to other districts, etc.

Remeber my statement about the first goal of any institution is to protect its members? This is what causes stupid policy. School boards pressure superintendents, superintendents pressure administrators, administrators pressure teachers. That forces each of those levels to do anything and everything they can to keep improving scores, which becomes the ultimate goal of the school. They do it to keep their jobs.

The obvious problem- scores can't continue to go up. By 2014, every public school in the nation is supposed to have 100% of their students meet the minimum threshold for proficiency in English and math. That's ludacris, 100% is completely unrealistic given the wide variety of students public schools must teach. Eventually all schools will fail to meet AYP, which will put a ton of added strain on an already stressed system.

People like the idea of using standardized tests to measure schools. It's neat and easy. It allows parents to choose "the good districts". It allows legislators to do victory dances because test scores improve. It gives the merit pay crowd (teachers' salaries are based on test performance) ammunition. Unfortunately, people don't seem to consider the cost. There IS a cost to using standardized tests as a means of measuring performance, and that cost is steep. Schools stop doing things that encourage creativity, sponenaity, and genuine learning in favor of rote memorization and cramming as much insignificant information in their heads as possible.

 

[jschwab]

You know, Jason, there is an

You know, Jason, there is an interesting hybrid model going on in my neighborhood (served by intensely horrible city public schools). The neighborhood association president has a home business homeschooling other people's kids. I think she started maybe as a day care provider and then moved into offering her services being the "learning coach" for kids enrolled in cyber charter schools. Usually the parent fills this role, but here, where most have to work and there are single parent households, this creates the opportunity for those kids to take advantage of this public homeschooling model. I have also heard some single parents just pay a babysitter for their school age kids during the day and then do all of the school lessons at night, either traditional homeschooling or cyber charters. The cyber schools are completely flexible and don't care who is doing the actual teaching so long as they are an adult. Of course, that model costs more than Head Start and free afterschool programs for the family, but it's not nearly the expense of private school and is within reach even for poorer families. For me, this is the future of education. The kids - of all ages - work together collaboratively. They go to the house of a trusted caregiver, and their parents are heavily invested without actually being overburdened by trying to do the schooling or the homework that goes along with traditional school. I think, within a few years, these kinds of programs, along with more traditional homeschooling coops, are going to explode. Around here, the defection rate from public school is sky high. Some people are not cut out for it,and lack the mental skills to meaningfully teach their kids, but I have seen parents with very inadequate social and educational resources themselves do a better job than anyone could.