More of less or less of more?

Bare Lee

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Since I started tuning into this forum regularly, I've noticed that just about every runner who takes their running seriously soon wants to see how far they can go, and so puts a premium on distance. (Longer runs may also help us shore up the runner versus jogger identity vexation.)

Also, as I’ve looked through some of the material on elite distance runners, I see most of them follow something like an 80 percent slow and long to 20 percent speed work ratio. If I followed this, I would do two to three longish runs per week, and just one day per week on hills, tempo, or sprints.

But I’m wondering if I should put a premium on speed, and never run more than 30-60 minutes at a time, in order to avoid repetitive stress problems (although greater speed would create greater impact forces, so the stress would be greater, but less sustained).

I just checked out the Ask the Docs and Health, Nutrition, Injuries forums for the first time, and apparently barefoot running hasn't been a cure-all for a lot of common shod runner's ailments. I would guess a lot of these are from repetitive stress of one kind or another, which the gentler gait of BFR may have ameliorated but hasn't done away with altogether.

So I’m wondering if, for example, 3 miles x 6 to 7 days per week is just as good as 5-7 miles x 3 days per week, or if 5-6 miles x 6 to 7 days per week is the equivalent to 8-12 miles x 3 days per week.

Less distance, faster pace, but no or few rest days. Less repetitive stress per run, but less recovery time.

I used to ride a bike 100 miles a day while traveling for two years, so I understand the endurance bug, and it would be nice to see what I’m capable of running-wise, but right now with work and family life, I only have general fitness goals. Plus, I like running faster.

Any thoughts? Injury-wise? Health-wise? Training-wise? Other-wise?
 
I can't answer to any of the other questions, but I will say that many (most?) of those injuries reported here are pre-existing, meaning they developed in shod running, which turned them to barefoot running for relief (or a cure). Many times, barefoot running does cure what ails them, but sometimes that is not the case for everyone, depending on the type of injury, the extent of the injury, the patience level, the approach, the desire, etc. Barefoot running is not the cure-all for everything. Most of the time it is the cure-all for bad form, however, but even then there's no guarantee there either.

I created the Medical Conditions/Injury forum because we may develop injuries in different ways for different reasons though. And I figured if you run, you can become injured regardless of what you have or have not on your feet. If you are physically active, you can become injured. In fact, if you step out your front door, you can become injured. I think as living beings that's just the way it goes.
 
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I should also mention that I got a tiny stress fracture when I jumped from 5 to 10 miles last fall, a case of TMTS, which I accept complete responsibility for, and which has not deterred me in the least from continuing BFR. In fact, I ran barefoot 20 years ago for several years while training karate. So you had me at 'bare'.
 
I'm kind of interested to hear how you do. I was just thinking to myself the other day that I might change things up a bit and do some short fast runs for a while and lay off the long slow distance runs. Sunday I tried to run a pace that I used to run before I started doing my long runs and I couldn't do it. I couldn't get there and sustain it for any distance... My mileage may be up but my speed for short runs (5kish) is way way way slower. I was able to sustain an 8:45 pace before and now I can't even maintain a 10:30 pace. I can sustain a 12:30 for 10-11 miles though... Weird how that works. I am seriously interested in Zaps training as she appears to have really benefited from it. Way back when I was actually pretty quick, I used to always run fast for training (5min pace) but nothing longer than 5 miles and almost always 3 or less miles and then when I would do any longer distance I would slow down as needed. I ran a half back then at an 8 min pace and barely felt like I ran and complained that it was too slow (was a forced Army run in the Honolulu Half and we couldn't let any of our soldiers fall out for the embarrassment it would cause the Army). I seriously think there may be a lot of benefit to training this way and when you run at a slower pace after training at such high intensity your heart rate barely moves because it is used to the high intensity stuff (in my experience so don't crucify me please Maf people).
 
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I forgot to mention that when I was a runner 8 years ago I was never injured running shod other than the rolled ankles I suffered pretty frequently. I then had 4 years off from all activity with 2 major back surgeries and then have been running again for the last year and some months and have had more injuries than I've ever had running my whole life. I don't blame it on barefoot running, I blame it on getting so fat and out of shape for so long and then adding in the age factor. I'm slowly getting better, I hope. I hope I will get to a point where I quit having setbacks.
 
I'm kind of interested to hear how you do. ... I seriously think there may be a lot of benefit to training this way and when you run at a slower pace after training at such high intensity your heart rate barely moves because it is used to the high intensity stuff (in my experience so don't crucify me please Maf people).
Thanks for the input Nick. I'll keep you posted, although I'm not guaranteeing I'll stick with it. Another thing I like about shorter, faster runs is I can sneak 'em in earlier in the day. If I wake up and only have a 30-minute run to do, I can usually motivate, but the thought of an hour or more run makes me put it off towards the end of the day, and then something might come up, etc., or I might not then have time for weights afterwards, etc. Plus if I can run every day, I wouldn't need to row on alternate days, and running is a lot more enjoyable than (machine) rowing.
 
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You and your philosophical questions…

I suffer from the “more distance, now” ailment as before I switched to BFR, I was running ~5 miles at a time; after I switched, I had to drop down to 0.5 mi at a time (it’s all my soles, etc… could handle). I’m now up to 2.5 mi (I think I’ve been doing this for 8 to 10 weeks, now) but I miss the longer runs. If nothing else, it’s that I don’t feel that I get any real workout with the shorter runs (everything is relative). I bicycle commute between 42 and 65 miles/week, and while there is some cardio there, riding is not the same as running.

As for speed, I haven’t messed with any speedwork while BFR. I understand the advantages (personal challenge, cardio benefits, going faster), and will try it some day, but now I’m just missing my miles (or, rather, I see speed work and distance to be mutually-exclusive on a given day).

I’ve heard of folks taking little or no rest days, so it can be done. Then again, the folks I hear of doing it are shod. Personally, I’d be afraid of trying no rest days BFR, hosing something up (which is an extremely technical medical term) and then not being able to run, period. What about mixing in some shod running to give your feet a break (a rest, if you will) to prevent TMTS injuries? Just make sure that you don't heel-strike...

As for BFR not being a cure-all (or worse, being detrimental), there are two things: 1) The dreaded TMTS, and 2) BFR is NOT a cure-all – it works better for some, but not for others. IMHO, BFR should be treated as an alternative [with a really cool cult] and not as a holy-grail.

RP
 
I don't think one size fits all when it comes to training so I support your idea and think you ought to give it a try. Speedwork and intervals work for me. However, the one thing that my coach stresses (my goals are strictly to stay uninjured and be capable of running ultras) is recovery. In fact, every fourth week for me is called Deload Week where all my runs are done at 70% (normally they are all out 100%) and my strength work is light. If you're running consistently, I wouldn't skimp on the recovery days. Even if you're doing shorter runs, but at a higher intensity, I think you still need recovery days to help build strength. That's just my opinion.
 
I forgot to mention that when I was a runner 8 years ago I was never injured running shod other than the rolled ankles I suffered pretty frequently. I then had 4 years off from all activity with 2 major back surgeries and then have been running again for the last year and some months and have had more injuries than I've ever had running my whole life. I don't blame it on barefoot running, I blame it on getting so fat and out of shape for so long and then adding in the age factor. I'm slowly getting better, I hope. I hope I will get to a point where I quit having setbacks.
I would say if you can run 10 miles you've already established a good base. Now it's just a question of managing it. Coming back from back surgery is going to take time for anyone, shod or bare, young or old.
 
You and your philosophical questions…

I suffer from the “more distance, now” ailment as before I switched to BFR, I was running ~5 miles at a time; after I switched, I had to drop down to 0.5 mi at a time (it’s all my soles, etc… could handle). I’m now up to 2.5 mi (I think I’ve been doing this for 8 to 10 weeks, now) but I miss the longer runs. If nothing else, it’s that I don’t feel that I get any real workout with the shorter runs (everything is relative). I bicycle commute between 42 and 65 miles/week, and while there is some cardio there, riding is not the same as running.

As for speed, I haven’t messed with any speedwork while BFR. I understand the advantages (personal challenge, cardio benefits, going faster), and will try it some day, but now I’m just missing my miles (or, rather, I see speed work and distance to be mutually-exclusive on a given day).

I’ve heard of folks taking little or no rest days, so it can be done. Then again, the folks I hear of doing it are shod. Personally, I’d be afraid of trying no rest days BFR, hosing something up (which is an extremely technical medical term) and then not being able to run, period. What about mixing in some shod running to give your feet a break (a rest, if you will) to prevent TMTS injuries? Just make sure that you don't heel-strike...

As for BFR not being a cure-all (or worse, being detrimental), there are two things: 1) The dreaded TMTS, and 2) BFR is NOT a cure-all – it works better for some, but not for others. IMHO, BFR should be treated as an alternative [with a really cool cult] and not as a holy-grail.

RP
Thanks for the feedback Mr. Pirate. The thing about shorter with few rest days is that it might be easier to keep on top of how one's body is doing, thus lessening the risk of hosation. But of course, it could mess things up. Since settling down some 15 years ago, and taking up exercise as a daily routine rather than a lifestyle, I've generally followed the one-day-on, one-day-off rule for weights and running, and have done pretty well with it in terms of avoiding injury, so this would be something new for me, but on the other hand I used to bike 100 miles many days in a row (high endurance) for two years, and trained karate 5-6 hours a day for several years (high intensity), so perhaps this aging body can handle it. We'll see.
 
I don't think one size fits all when it comes to training so I support your idea and think you ought to give it a try. Speedwork and intervals work for me. However, the one thing that my coach stresses (my goals are strictly to stay uninjured and be capable of running ultras) is recovery. In fact, every fourth week for me is called Deload Week where all my runs are done at 70% (normally they are all out 100%) and my strength work is light. If you're running consistently, I wouldn't skimp on the recovery days. Even if you're doing shorter runs, but at a higher intensity, I think you still need recovery days to help build strength. That's just my opinion.

Thanks Zapmamak. I've been thinking about this for a while, but reading about your regimen has helped inspire me. I doubt I'll ever get into the ultra game though--by the time I have the time I'll probably be too old for a trail ultra, and running with a crowd in a road marathon is really unappealing.

In any case, I don't think I'll be doing anything 100% for a while. When I say run fast, I mean run faster than I could if I ran longer. Right now that might mean running 8-to-9-minute miles instead of my current 10-minute mile pace, but eventually it would be nice to get down to six- or seven-minute mile pace, and be able to full out sprint once in a while without fear of something falling off or shearing.

But yeah, I was thinking about taking at least 2-3 days off in a row once a month, and maybe one or two weeks off quarterly. I think complete rest is a good thing. When I was traveling by bicycle I would often stop to sightsee or resupply for several days to several weeks at a time, and it would always refresh me. Now I would just let my body tell me when it's time. It usually knows when it's time to rest, and knows when it's time to get back to it. With no racing schedule, I don't feel any pressure to keep on a strict routine.
 
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I created the Medical Conditions/Injury forum because we may develop injuries in different ways for different reasons though.
(Re-reading this now)
That's what I expected to see--TOFP, sore calves, etc., but I also saw a lot of 'traditional' ailments, like runner's knee, brought up in the forum. So irrespective of heavy shod, lite shod, or barefoot running, I'm wondering what's the best way to guard against repetitive stress hosing (to use Pirate's jargon): more of less, or less of more? I should have made this clearer.
 
In any case, I don't think I'll be doing anything 100% for a while. When I say run fast, I mean run faster than I could if I ran longer. Right now that might mean running 8-to-9-minute miles instead of my current 10-minute mile pace, but eventually it would be nice to get down to six- or seven-minute mile pace, and be able to full out sprint once in a while without fear of something falling off or shearing.
I am in the same boat for speeding up, only I'm a bit slower. Today I just did a mile and a half at a 9:50 pace (which is fast for me now a days so quit your snickering:p ). I have to wear shoes when I run faster as it really seems to hurt me barefoot. The stinking shoes started to give me a hotspot on one arch though so I had to take them off and just finish off the run at my normal slow 12:30ish pace. Was nice though because I ran through a knee depth flooded section which is fun and I didn't have to worry about the shoes getting soaked.
 
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I'm more like the "run every other day and call it wonderful" sort of trainer. I can't think of any excuse beyond youthful exuberance to run 2 days in a row. My body just doesn't like that. On the other hand, I do like the idea of running faster, within reason, and am willing to do such things as the Maffetone heart rate based training, at least, as well as I can without a real HR Monitor. Doing this kind of running, which is mostly LSD, with some hills thrown in for challenges, I've brought my 10 mile and Half times down from more than 9 minute miles to less than 8's. Good enough for me for a year's progress.

Now I'm going into my "trail race" season, and times don't equate so well, but the feeling of strength and trail competence is real important. That's what I will train for more than anything. Well, that, and the general and profound joy of running at all.

Maybe this is kind of blathery, but I hope it contributes a little to the considerations.
 
But I’m wondering if I should put a premium on speed, and never run more than 30-60 minutes at a time

I will take this type of workout any day than running long, personally I find this type of workout gets you in better shape than running long. I actually don't even like running long, I will only do long runs if I am training for a marathon, or the 50k I ran a few weeks ago. I do like to run 10 milers here and there but nothing longer. I will do anything between 30-60 min during the week mixing up.

I wish I can help more but I have gone through a paradigm shift with my running, I just run for the joy of it now. If I feel like going fast I will, I no longer have a set schedule when I run, it all depends how I feel once I leave my door.
 
I can't offer a lot of what does work, since I'm only an expert at what doesn't. I'm back at ground zero after a month off with tendonitis. :(

I do think though that having variety in training is an important principle to follow.....whether you follow a plan to do so, or just walk out your door and decide what you feel like doing on that day.
 
I just run for the joy of it now. If I feel like going fast I will, I no longer have a set schedule when I run, it all depends how I feel once I leave my door.

My routine exactly! But I do enjoy LSD runs - particularly if there is good conversation! An unstructured Fartlek session is frequently welcome for a real change of pace.
 
I will take this type of workout any day than running long, personally I find this type of workout gets you in better shape than running long. I actually don't even like running long, I will only do long runs if I am training for a marathon, or the 50k I ran a few weeks ago. I do like to run 10 milers here and there but nothing longer. I will do anything between 30-60 min during the week mixing up.

I wish I can help more but I have gone through a paradigm shift with my running, I just run for the joy of it now. If I feel like going fast I will, I no longer have a set schedule when I run, it all depends how I feel once I leave my door.

I'm just looking for opinions and want to hear what other people do, so this is all very helpful. Besides doing what we enjoy most, be it long/slow or short/fast, it's curious that the goal of almost all recreational runners is to run as far as possible, not as fast as possible. Few people seem to talk about improving their 5k times for example. It's almost always about training for a half, marathon, or ultra. I'm not taking sides, just pointing that out.
I'm also wondering if anyone has found that shorter, faster runs lead to less repetitive stress, or if it's all the same.
 
My routine exactly! But I do enjoy LSD runs - particularly if there is good conversation!
Yah, conversation can be great. Something I miss right now. I may keep one LSD run per week, maybe drive out to a trail or lake on the weekend. I like the idea of unstructured workouts, which is what I'm doing more and more with weights, but I'm still struggling to find a good routine for running. I want to do it first thing in the morning, but that would mean shorter, faster, most days.
 

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