Minimal ultra training time

[theshortwhiteguy]

I'm still waiting for Jason

I'm still waiting for Jason to chime in on this one since he has more knowledge and ultras under his belt.

Here's my take having run 1 ultra over 50k - IF you have a base to run a marathon you can certainly run a 50-miler in three months. I did this last year when I ran a marathon on 3/20/11 and ran a 50-miler on 6/11/11 - my mileage over that period averaged a little over 34.31 miles, with the two lowest weeks being the week after the marathon and the week of the ultra (12.05 & 13.44 miles). The longest run during that 11 week period was 17.62 miles. Would I do the same for a 100-miler? Hell no! Although I can say my weekly mileage would be no more than 90-100 miles training for a 100. But, that's just me, and you need to find what works for you.

 

[Barefoot TJ]

bubba hotep wrote:Barefoot

And then you have the one-off, unusual case of Todd Ragsdale, who after just a few short months (3 or 4?) of barefoot running (conditioning his feet through gravel bucket training, no doubt) set the Guiness World Record for the Longest Barefoot run at 102.65 miles. Check out this article from the home page and the pictures of his feet afterwards: 102 Mile Barefoot Ultra - No Simple Feat

It should be noted that Todd had years of running ultra distance races on his resume before setting the WR. It isn't like he just worked on conditioning his feet for a few months and then went out and set a WR. Someone mentioned BF Ted and his lower mileage training, Ted has also been running ultras for years and it takes a really long time to build up your aerobic base. Your aerobic base does not fade that fast and can be maintained on lower mileage, esp. if a good portion of that mileage is in the form of your long run.

I said conditioning his feet, as in his plantar skin through bucket training.

 

[bubba hotep]

Barefoot TJ wrote:bubba

And then you have the one-off, unusual case of Todd Ragsdale, who after just a few short months (3 or 4?) of barefoot running (conditioning his feet through gravel bucket training, no doubt) set the Guiness World Record for the Longest Barefoot run at 102.65 miles. Check out this article from the home page and the pictures of his feet afterwards: 102 Mile Barefoot Ultra - No Simple Feat

It should be noted that Todd had years of running ultra distance races on his resume before setting the WR. It isn't like he just worked on conditioning his feet for a few months and then went out and set a WR. Someone mentioned BF Ted and his lower mileage training, Ted has also been running ultras for years and it takes a really long time to build up your aerobic base. Your aerobic base does not fade that fast and can be maintained on lower mileage, esp. if a good portion of that mileage is in the form of your long run.

I said conditioning his feet, as in his plantar skin through bucket training.

I totally got that but wasn't sure if everyone was familiar with his running history. I was just making a note in case someone read it as he trained for and set a WR on only 3 or 4 months of training.

 

[Barefoot TJ]

Gotcha. 

Gotcha.

 

[BFwillie_g]

to the OP - learn to walk,

to the OP - learn to walk, learn to eat. Go for it!

 

[Last Place Jason]

I've seen crazier things, but

I've seen crazier things, but 3-4 months isn't too long. It can be done, but it's gonna hurt something fierce.

I ran my first 50m after 6 months, but it beat me up. Most of my recent ultras done at ultra--low weekly mileage (avg. less than 20/week) are possible because of a residual base. Same deal with Ted.

 

[Last Place Jason]

Just re-read OP.  A 100? 

Just re-read OP. A 100? Wow.

Gotta say, that's bordering on the impossible unless you have some serious mileage history. The potential for serious damage to non-musculosleletal bodily systems is pretty good. Proceed with extreme caution.

 

[bubba hotep]

Last Place Jason wrote:Just

Just re-read OP. A 100? Wow.

Gotta say, that's bordering on the impossible unless you have some serious mileage history. The potential for serious damage to non-musculosleletal bodily systems is pretty good. Proceed with extreme caution.

Yeah, that would be a good chapter for your book! Your body undergoes a lot of changes when you are running a lot and it takes time and rest for the different systems to balance these changes. You will have an increase in blood volume, increase in the number of capillaries, changes to and an increase in mitochondria, just to name a few. Your endocrine and immune systems will be stressed. Add all of this to the stress you will be putting on your musculoskeletal system and it is one way ticket to injury town.

OP - Have you discussed your running history in this thread yet? I don't think people are being overly negative but just want to see you have an enjoyable summer. Why not a 50k or at max a 50 mile? Both would be great challenges and you are more likely to be able to train for and then maybe even finish those on 3 or 4 months of training.

 

[Barefoot TJ]

Shouldn't this thread go

Shouldn't this thread go under the Ultra forum? It would benefit more people that way in the future should they search for something on this subject.

 

[bubba hotep]

Barefoot TJ wrote:Shouldn't

Shouldn't this thread go under the Ultra forum? It would benefit more people that way in the future should they search for something on this subject.

Totally agree. I was actually going to suggest that and the same for the "I finished my 1st ultra" thread

 

[barefoot kean]

I will post any new updates

I will post any new updates over the summer on the ultra forum. And Jason, Ill shoot for the 100 and expect to land safely in the 50 realm

 

[Last Place Jason]

Kean- running the race is

Kean- running the race is always a great experience. There's a great chance you may finish the 100... just be careful about listening to your body. It's going to hurt (they all do no matter how much training you have), just know the difference between "ultra pain" and "I'm seriously hurt" pain. And don't use ibuprofen. Good luck, man!

 

[ElyDave]

So would you say the same for me? First ultra is a 70-miler in mid July.

Current running mileage is about 30km a week, longest run to date is about 25km, but that's within an overall training volume of about 5 hours per week since the new year?

I do have a history of rowing and cycling including several rides of up to 100miles, before that rugby as well, and have been training approx 5-6 sessions a week for the last two years. My intention is to finish and enjoy it.

Personally I don't think the physical challenge will be beyond be, the mental factor beyond 6 hours is the unknown for me.

 

[pilotrunner]

Dave, man I find it difficult that anyone (I don't know you but have read of your running) could go from 19 miles per week to run a 70 miler in 4 months. That seems like a stretch.

I also agree, however, that this will probably be more mental than anything. A 20 mpw base is a good place to start from. What is your training plan?

All I know is from my own experience that after running my marathon, I could have easily ran another in two days and I was running 40 miles/week before my taper.

 

[ElyDave]

Well, we'll find out in July.

I think the thing is here, if I were to be doing all my exercise as running, I'd be nearer 40-45 miles per week now, based on 4 x 10km plus a longer weekend run. You don't seem to think that overall training time/volume has any bearing on this?

Once the cycling TT season starts in April, I'll be aiming to do that once per week, when I'm at home. Then 3-4 more one hour-ish sessions, mainly running, but with yoga and an occaisional row thrown in. These will tend to be limited by work during the week, although I may be able to get some of them longer. Weekends will alternate longer runs/cycle rides culminating in a planned back to back 30km runs about 4 weeks before the main event.

I think the engine is pretty good having been training regularly for the last 7 years or so pretty consistently, the question is whether a good background/base can be tuned to running specifically.

 

[pilotrunner]

Cardiovascularly, I believe you're absolutely on step with your training volume. Mileage however, I think there is value to "time on feet" and you may not be giving yourself enough. That's JMHO, I could be wrong.

 

[BFwillie_g]

LINK: You all ought to scroll through this one, lol

 

[Barefoot Gentile]

Cardiovascularly, I believe you're absolutely on step with your training volume. Mileage however, I think there is value to "time on feet" and you may not be giving yourself enough. That's JMHO, I could be wrong.

+1!

 

[Last Place Jason]

If anyone's looking for a very general guideline regarding ultras versus longest training run: Most can pretty much double their longest run or time on feet if they go slow and eat throughout the race. For example, a strong half marathon will probably allow you to finish a 50k. Run a marathon? You can probably handle a 50m. A 50k training run will gt you to a 100k race, and a 50 miler would allow you to finish a 100 miler.

Specific to 100 milers- I wouldn't suggest a 50 mile training run for most people. I've done it and the recovery is just too long. It may be a little safer to do a back-to-back day like 30 on Saturday and 20 on Sunday. I would also suggest tossing out all time goals. The biggest newbie mistake is to go out too fast, followed by a failure to consume calories during the entire race.

 

[ElyDave]

Thanks Jason, that's a very handy rule of thumb.

I'm up to 40km on Sunday's long run, so by that reckoning I need to be up to about 50-55km to be ready to complete a 70-miler (approx 113km). I'm doing very well with the nutrition and hydration having had enough experience of that on the bike I think, so it's more adapting to doing it while running than starting from scratch there.

Aerobic fitness and muscle recovery are both going pretty good as well, with me able to maintain a steady HR with no significant drift, and no real soreness in quads, hams or calves this morning. I had a little achilles soreness but that walked off within about half an hour after waking.

The thing that, as I suspected is being problematic is the ramping up of the volume and my knees in particular are protesting significantly. I know it's nothing structural and it's just usage, but it has me questioning whether I can adapt quicky enough with about 9 weeks to go, particularly as I will be travelling with work for at least 4 of those Sundays so will not be able to get as long as run as normal that weekend without causing family disruption. One option, which I'm thinking of deciding at the end of May would be to see of I can drop down to the 40 (which I'm confident I could complete) for this year and build towards the 40 next year.