Last minute training tips (full marathon)?

Discussion in 'Training Information/Training Regimens' started by Tristan, Aug 20, 2013.

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  1. Tristan

    Tristan Barefooters
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    So as some of you know I've signed up for my first full marathon (oct 20th). I've been working on increasing my long runs through the summer, generally sticking to the 10% increase per week. Some minor setbacks here and there, races plus tapering, and a couple trips left me with about half the long runs I planned on for the summer. Right now my longest run was about 18 miles, and its been over a month ago.

    I've got exactly 2 months left to go, and wondering if I should do anything different for my final training. Besides my tapering back up from my half marathon (which I think I'm good to go finally) I generally do 2 midweek runs, ~8miles each (varying between either easy, trail with small hills, or speedwork with 1 mile fast intervals). The a long run on the weekend.

    There are 9 weekends from now until the race. This weekend I probably wont push the mileage since I've been down in mileage for the last several weeks, but I plan on trying to get back to where I was at 16-18 miles. Should my taper start with cutting down the last long run weekend or the last two? I've got one more race I'd like to do between now and then, one I've done now a few years in a row, my hometown festival 5k run Sept 21. Not sure if I need to taper much for a 5k, I havent done one since spring and wasnt up in my mileage yet back then. I was going to really push that one hard though, in an attempt to break 20 minutes finally. If I take it a little easy the weekend before and after the 5k, and cut my long runs down the last two weeks, that gives me only 3 weekends worth of long runs! At 10% each time that gets me to maybe 24 miles for the first time. Maybe I'll try full long runs before and after my 5k to give me a couple more?

    Should I maintain my couple of 8ish mile days during the week or change anything up there? Any advice appreciated. Been thinking a lot how I really havent been following anything structured for training this year except this routine I've kind of settled into.
     

    #1 Tristan, Aug 20, 2013
  2. mokaman

    mokaman Chapter Presidents
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    I'm going from own experience in hind site...I would make your last 20+ miler 3 weeks out instead of 2 weeks from the marathon...just for recovery purposes...that may interfere with your 5 k though. Its better to be a little under trained than not recovered enough on the long run part.
     

    #2 mokaman, Aug 20, 2013
  3. Tristan

    Tristan Barefooters
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    Thanks mok... so your saying 20+ miler weekend, taper weekend (low teens?), taper weekend (6-8miles?), race weekend. Just guessing on the taper amounts.

    I also just recently noticed that some training plans do long runs only every other weekend. I hadnt thought about that, but even in the upper teens I'm feeling sometimes like I'm not recovering by the next weekend. I thought it was mainly nutrition - more specifically getting carb & protien back in my system quicker, and I've been building my energy back up much quicker since, but still wonder what others do when they start hitting 20+ mile runs. Do you do that every week or every other?
     

    #3 Tristan, Aug 23, 2013
  4. Barefoot Dama

    Barefoot Dama Barefooters
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    Tristan use this as a guide if you like or go to runners world and look for the smart coach link and you can print your own guide so you can get an idea of how to proceed id this link doesn't show up.
    Here's your individualized training program:





    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    For more explanation of a workout, click the title of the workout.
    Week

    Monday
    Tuesday
    Wednesday
    Thursday
    Friday
    Saturday
    Sunday
    1
    AUG 19
    AUG 20
    AUG 21
    AUG 22
    AUG 23
    AUG 24
    AUG 25
    10 Mi
    Rest / XT
    Long Run
    Dist: 10 Mi
    @10:19
    Rest / XT
    2
    AUG 26
    AUG 27
    AUG 28
    AUG 29
    AUG 30
    AUG 31
    SEP 1
    26 Mi
    Easy Run
    Dist: 4 Mi
    @10:19
    Rest / XT
    Speedwork
    Dist: 6 Mi, inc
    Warm; 3x1600 in 8:15
    w/800 jogs; Cool
    Easy Run
    Dist: 4 Mi
    @10:19
    Rest / XT
    Long Run
    Dist: 12 Mi
    @10:19
    Rest / XT
    3
    SEP 2
    SEP 3
    SEP 4
    SEP 5
    SEP 6
    SEP 7
    SEP 8
    27 Mi
    Easy Run
    Dist: 4 Mi
    @10:18
    Rest / XT
    Tempo Run
    Dist: 6 Mi, inc
    Warm; 4 Mi @ 8:48; Cool
    Easy Run
    Dist: 3 Mi
    @10:18
    Rest / XT
    Long Run
    Dist: 14 Mi
    @10:18
    Rest / XT
    4
    SEP 9
    SEP 10
    SEP 11
    SEP 12
    SEP 13
    SEP 14
    SEP 15
    22 Mi
    Easy Run
    Dist: 6 Mi
    @10:16
    Rest / XT
    Easy Run
    Dist: 5 Mi
    @10:16
    Easy Run
    Dist: 5 Mi
    @10:16
    Rest / XT
    Easy Run
    Dist: 6 Mi
    @10:16
    Rest / XT
    5
    SEP 16
    SEP 17
    SEP 18
    SEP 19
    SEP 20
    SEP 21
    SEP 22
    28 Mi
    Easy Run
    Dist: 3 Mi
    @10:16
    Rest / XT
    Tempo Run
    Dist: 6 Mi, inc
    Warm; 4 Mi @ 8:46; Cool
    Easy Run
    Dist: 3 Mi
    @10:16
    Rest / XT
    Long Run
    Dist: 16 Mi
    @10:16
    Rest / XT
    6
    SEP 23
    SEP 24
    SEP 25
    SEP 26
    SEP 27
    SEP 28
    SEP 29
    29 Mi
    Easy Run
    Dist: 3 Mi
    @10:14
    Rest / XT
    Speedwork
    Dist: 6 Mi, inc
    Warm; 3x1600 in 8:11
    w/800 jogs; Cool
    Easy Run
    Dist: 2 Mi
    @10:14
    Rest / XT
    Long Run
    Dist: 18 Mi
    @10:14
    Rest / XT
    7
    SEP 30
    OCT 1
    OCT 2
    OCT 3
    OCT 4
    OCT 5
    OCT 6
    30 Mi
    Easy Run
    Dist: 2 Mi
    @10:12
    Rest / XT
    Tempo Run
    Dist: 6 Mi, inc
    Warm; 4 Mi @ 8:43; Cool
    Easy Run
    Dist: 2 Mi
    @10:12
    Rest / XT
    Long Run
    Dist: 20 Mi
    @10:12
    Rest / XT
    8
    OCT 7
    OCT 8
    OCT 9
    OCT 10
    OCT 11
    OCT 12
    OCT 13
    24 Mi
    Easy Run
    Dist: 6 Mi
    @10:11
    Rest / XT
    Easy Run
    Dist: 6 Mi
    @10:11
    Easy Run
    Dist: 6 Mi
    @10:11
    Rest / XT
    Easy Run
    Dist: 6 Mi
    @10:11
    Rest / XT
    9
    OCT 14
    OCT 15
    OCT 16
    OCT 17
    OCT 18
    OCT 19
    OCT 20
    32 Mi
    Easy Run
    Dist: 5 Mi
    @10:11
    Rest / XT
    Tempo Run
    Dist: 7 Mi, inc
    Warm; 5 Mi @ 8:46; Cool
    Easy Run
    Dist: 4 Mi
    @10:11
    Rest / XT
    Long Run
    Dist: 16 Mi
    @10:11
    Rest / XT
    10
    OCT 21
    OCT 22
    OCT 23
    OCT 24
    OCT 25
    OCT 26
    OCT 27
    33 Mi
    Easy Run
    Dist: 4 Mi
    @10:09
    Rest / XT
    Speedwork
    Dist: 6 Mi, inc
    Warm; 3x1600 in 8:06
    w/800 jogs; Cool
    Easy Run
    Dist: 3 Mi
    @10:09
    Rest / XT
    Long Run
    Dist: 20 Mi
    @10:09
    Rest / XT
    11
    OCT 28
    OCT 29
    OCT 30
    OCT 31
    NOV 1
    NOV 2
    NOV 3
    34 Mi
    Easy Run
    Dist: 6 Mi
    @10:07
    Rest / XT
    Tempo Run
    Dist: 7 Mi, inc
    Warm; 5 Mi @ 8:43; Cool
    Easy Run
    Dist: 5 Mi
    @10:07
    Rest / XT
    Long Run
    Dist: 16 Mi
    @10:07
    Rest / XT
    12
    NOV 4
    NOV 5
    NOV 6
    NOV 7
    NOV 8
    NOV 9
    NOV 10
    27 Mi
    Easy Run
    Dist: 7 Mi
    @10:06
    Rest / XT
    Easy Run
    Dist: 7 Mi
    @10:06
    Easy Run
    Dist: 6 Mi
    @10:06
    Rest / XT
    Easy Run
    Dist: 7 Mi
    @10:06
    Rest / XT
    13
    NOV 11
    NOV 12
    NOV 13
    NOV 14
    NOV 15
    NOV 16
    NOV 17
    35 Mi
    Easy Run
    Dist: 4 Mi
    @10:06
    Rest / XT
    Tempo Run
    Dist: 7 Mi, inc
    Warm; 5 Mi @ 8:42; Cool
    Easy Run
    Dist: 4 Mi
    @10:06
    Rest / XT
    Long Run
    Dist: 20 Mi
    @10:06
    Rest / XT
    14
    NOV 18
    NOV 19
    NOV 20
    NOV 21
    NOV 22
    NOV 23
    NOV 24
    22 Mi
    Easy Run
    Dist: 2 Mi
    @10:04
    Rest / XT
    Speedwork
    Dist: 6 Mi, inc
    Warm; 3x1600 in 8:02
    w/800 jogs; Cool
    Easy Run
    Dist: 2 Mi
    @10:04
    Rest / XT
    Long Run
    Dist: 12 Mi
    @10:04
    Rest / XT
    15
    NOV 25
    NOV 26
    NOV 27
    NOV 28
    NOV 29
    NOV 30
    DEC 1
    19 Mi
    Easy Run
    Dist: 3 Mi
    @10:03
    Rest / XT
    Tempo Run
    Dist: 5 Mi, inc
    Warm; 3 Mi @ 8:30; Cool
    Easy Run
    Dist: 3 Mi
    @10:03
    Rest / XT
    Long Run
    Dist: 8 Mi
    @10:03
    Rest / XT
    16
    DEC 2
    DEC 3
    DEC 4
    DEC 5
    DEC 6
    DEC 7
    DEC 8
    36 Mi
    Rest / XT
    Easy Run
    Dist: 3 Mi
    @10:03
    Speedwork
    Dist: 4 Mi, inc
    Warm; 2x1600 in 8:01
    w/800 jogs; Cool
    Rest / XT
    Easy Run
    Dist: 3 Mi
    @10:03
    Rest / XT
    Marathon Race Day
    26.2 Mi @9:05
    Time: 3:5
     

    #4 Barefoot Dama, Aug 23, 2013
  5. Barefoot Dama

    Barefoot Dama Barefooters
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    Work from the bottom up to accomodate your race date.
    Not all of the plan showed up you're going to go there and print your own.
    If you want.
     

    #5 Barefoot Dama, Aug 23, 2013
  6. mokaman

    mokaman Chapter Presidents
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    Yes that's what I would do especially on your first marathon...I'm planning on just that myself when ever I run a marathon again...its better to be a little under trained than over trained. On my first marathon after about 15 miles I was wishing I had tapered for 3 weeks instead of two.

    I do better on the recovery with a long run(18 or more) every 2 or sometimes 3 weeks between... I think higher mileage runners who's regular distance is 50 miles+ a week probably can get used to longer runs every week.
     

    #6 mokaman, Aug 23, 2013
  7. Tristan

    Tristan Barefooters
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    Well that list is hard to follow and I guess you need an account to access the smart coach thing. Suppose its way to late to worry about messing with my training now anyway, with only a few weeks of long runs remaining. Should have been inquiring earlier in the year but I just like to wing it I guess.

    Mok - yeah thats kind of what I was afraid of. The mileage is new territory for me, and even back when I was hitting 15-16 miles for the first time it felt like I was crashing for a good week after. But my last couple long runs seem to have gone much better, big difference was that I ate a ton afterward (and a big meal the night before). Might not have been the best food, but eating a lot has seemed to really help me. Ever since I started running and loosing weight I had been cutting my portions way down, this year I started ramping back up. Yesterdays long run was my farthest yet, today I'm feeling good but we'll see how I feel when I run tomorrow (easy pace 8 miles probably).
     

    #7 Tristan, Aug 26, 2013
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  8. Tristan

    Tristan Barefooters
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    So I whipped up a quick calendar of what I thought I'd do from now until the marathon in a format hopefully easy to view. The mileages are just estimates. Also I always include the warmup and cool down as part of the total miles so realize for example when I do my 8mi speed work, it's usually 1.8 miles warmup and cool down so really only about 4 miles for the main part. I still plan on doing the 5k race but I'm not going to do any major taper for it, it will simply replace my speed training for the week and that weekend would have been a rest weekend anyhow so no really long run.

    If anyone has any suggestions I'm all ears since I'm guessing at all of this.

    image.jpg

    image.jpg

    Now I dont run the exact same days all the time, often run Saturday instead of Sunday, and when I do I sometimes will run mon-wed-fri the following week so have an extra day in there. Sometimes my easy run mon-tues following my weekend long run I'll do on the trail, with huaraches, to give my soles a chance to recover further and stretch out the legs a little more (uneven trail with small hills). And depending on which location I run, and how I'm feeling or doing on time distances often vary +/- 1-2 miles.
     

    #8 Tristan, Aug 29, 2013
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  9. pilotrunner

    pilotrunner Barefooters
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    Not enough running days or miles. Additionally, you have too high a % of miles on your LSD. You can survive on this plan if you're in good shape, but it will hurt.

    I am also of the school that anything over 20 is only adding to your pain total and not of a real benefit. (Personally, I think that number is 18, but I've been brainwashed by the minions who believe a marathon is a 20 mile run followed by a 10K race).

    This year, I'm running a 756 mile 18 week plan with 5 running days / week. Monday is always rest following the LSD on Sunday. Friday is always a rest preparing for the weekend. The first edition of my plan 3 years ago was only 500 miles and the marathon was survivable.

    Typical (average) week is:

    Monday - SRD
    Tuesday - 5
    Wednesday - 8 (Marathon pace)
    Thursday - 5
    Friday - SRD
    Saturday - 8
    Sunday - 18 (MAFF HR or MP+ 45-60" whichever comes first)

    Total for week: 44 miles

    Started with 30 mpw and peak at 52 with two 20 milers.

    ** - All of the above opinions above are just that... Worth exactly what you paid for them... -**

    Best of luck. Look forward to your RR.

    Cheers.
     

    #9 pilotrunner, Sep 24, 2013
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  10. Tristan

    Tristan Barefooters
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    Hey thanks for the advice pilotrunner... but unfortunately I think too late for me now, this week will be my last high mileage week, and next week I'll start tapering back. I have stuck to the above plan fwiw except less miles here and there actually, a few of the midweek runs were a few miles shorter. Guess at some point I got to try running consecutive days again. I tried it earlier this year and decided against it. But looks like thats the ticket to get more mileage.

    I didnt realize though that it was recommended to keep ones long run short though. I had planned to push up my distance another (and final) 10% this weekend with a 24 miler. Would you recommend I not do that? I'd feel so much more comfortable knowing I've been a little closer to 26... and my 20 and 22 milers seem to really help, I mean the first time I did 16 miles like 2 months ago I was in pretty bad shape afterwards lol, but after doing 22 miles the 16 mile point doesnt seem like a big deal anymore. I dont mean to get ahead of myself either, but does that recommendation go for ultras too? Do you focus on more weekly mileage but not so much on the long run? Just seems counterintuitive since the goal is to be able to do the one long run, not a bunch of miles across a week? But I know the training part of the equation isnt necessarily intuitive! I do hope to keep progressing, I'd love to be running an ultra in another year or two, but more discussion about that will be at a later date as I am guessing my winter mileage will drop, and I'll start 'training' again come spring.

    I am just planning on 'surviving' my first marathon and not really trying to race or worried about time... it will be really hard to hold back, for me, the race is usually the first third... and then the rest is a struggle to not slow down too much :oops: so this is going to be very different.
     

    #10 Tristan, Sep 24, 2013
  11. pilotrunner

    pilotrunner Barefooters
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    Again, JMHO...

    Anything over 20 is not helping your endurance but just demonstrating that you can take the pain. But if you can gut it out for 18 to 20, the pain doesn't get any worse...It just goes on longer. (hope that makes sense)

    On your feet for over 3.5 hrs begins to return diminishing results. It takes your body over a week to recover that time/distance so you're breaking it down more than you're building it up.

    More miles are always better and I wouldn't say I don't focus on the long runs. With the increase of weekly mileage, the long runs have been much easier to accomplish this year. The 16, the 18 and the 20 were a breeze compared to the previous 4 years. I am 100% uninjured and the mid-week 8s are more of a time-suck than anything. This has been my best training cycle since I was 22 and I attribute it entirely to the increase in miles. Even what I'm doing is considered "low mileage" for the hard-core marathoners, but I feel the BF aspect adds a lot to the overall package.

    Good luck on the race!

    Ciao.
     

    #11 pilotrunner, Sep 25, 2013
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  12. Tristan

    Tristan Barefooters
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    Thanks again Pilot, I'm pretty much at the end of my above plan, but I'll definitely revisit this after I'm done and starting towards the next. I wish I would have asked back maybe at the start of summer, but things seemed to be working well for my running so I just went with how I had been doing it all along. But now, I can't wait to try your methods.
     

    #12 Tristan, Sep 25, 2013
  13. rickwhitelaw

    rickwhitelaw Barefooters
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    Sorry, too late to offer any advice, but I would recommend you not listen to me anyway because I am yet to complete a official marathon without troubles (I have since had plenty of marathon distance runs with no problems). I guess I have game day problems, but they are usually because of going out too fast or pushing too much on the middle section. So if that is your concern, regulate yourself early on. Does your marathon have pace groups? You don't have to stay with one, but be aware of where they are.

    I can kind of see where Pilot is coming from, although with Ultra runs, the long run has been the key for me. Are you still going for that 24 miler this weekend? If not, I would suggest a back to back run. That will simulate running on tired legs and feet, but will be much easier on your body. A big long run would be beneficial to figure out your fueling and hydration, but if that went well on your 22 miler, you should be good to go.

    Don't over think things. You are going to do great and have fun doing it.
     

    #13 rickwhitelaw, Sep 26, 2013
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  14. Tristan

    Tristan Barefooters
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    Thanks Rick. Yeah I am sure there will be pacers, but I'll also have the garmin. I hear you about the problems, I tend to go out way too fast myself and my last two half-marathons I drop anywhere from 30 seconds to a full minute off my pace if you compare the first quarter of it to say the third quarter. My last one I tried to hold back at the start, and I did keep my pace closer the whole race but still much faster at the beginning. The last third, or even half of it is a real struggle fighting exhaustion and my mind wanting me to slow down, but I have always been able to pull through ok. However, I might not be able to do that on this big of a race. And also being new territory, I really dont even know what I am capable of to set a target pace. I have a goal of 4hrs, which might seem to be easy since my last half marathon was 1:38, but I know my pace is going to be much slower for a full, my endurance seems to be lacking at distances much longer than that. I'm not even worried about hitting that goal, but got to have something to shoot for. It is a relatively flat city street race, so no tough hills or anything like that.

    About this weekend, I'm not sure. Due to last weeks lack of mileage or long run, I did start a day earlier this week and with a little extra mileage, so this will be a 4 running day week for me doing the every other day run, and I had planned on running Friday, and I have to work Saturday anyhow, so think I'll stick to my plan and do the one long run on Sunday. Just not sure if I want to stick to my 24mile goal, or back it off to 18-20. I still wanted to experiment with a few things as far as food goes, though I have tried a couple things on the last 2 long runs but there are a few more breakfast and during the run things I wanted to try. As of today, I have 23 days left until race day fwiw.

    I dont mean to drag the issue out further, but any comments on the tapering? Thats one thing I can still adjust, and I'm not really sure how many miles I should be doing those last couple weeks.
     

    #14 Tristan, Sep 26, 2013
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  15. Barefoot Dama

    Barefoot Dama Barefooters
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    Maybe reduce mileage by 50% and then on race week by another 25%? Just guessing though cause I don't know how your weekly mileage looks like.
     

    #15 Barefoot Dama, Sep 26, 2013
  16. Tristan

    Tristan Barefooters
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    The mileage in my calendar I posted above I have been pretty close to. (post 8)

    Yeah thats close to what I had planned in the calendar. When should my last run be? A day or two before the race or should I not run for several days? I generally walk two miles daily at lunch time as well, can that continue up to race day or should a change anything there?
     

    #16 Tristan, Sep 26, 2013
  17. Barefoot Dama

    Barefoot Dama Barefooters
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    Most plans call for a slow 3mi run the day before race day but I've never done that myself I ALWAYS take two days of complete rest before the marathon.
    The only thing I do is take a hot bath with Epson salts a day or two before race day to loosen up the muscles.
    I also do the foam roller to break up anything hidden even if I don't feel like I need it.
    I'll continue with the walks just because your body is used to but if you want to you could skip those walks too.
    Make sure you carbo load the last three/four days before race day and NOT the day before it'll be too late.
     

    #17 Barefoot Dama, Sep 26, 2013
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  18. Barefoot Dama

    Barefoot Dama Barefooters
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    For some reason I can't edit but I did look at the calendar it looks good to me.
     

    #18 Barefoot Dama, Sep 26, 2013
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  19. rickwhitelaw

    rickwhitelaw Barefooters
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    I have never been much for a taper or even a schedule, but most of my running club friends are coached by Ted Cooley. Here is his recent facebook post.

    Ok, here we go. Last 3 weeks before the Marathon and with your longest run on the doorstep, it's time to think about tapering.
    Tapering gives your body the time to heal and hydrate properly from all the small muscle tears and soreness from inflammation, prior to the event. This is also the time that you will be so tempted to gobble sweets and ice cream, so don't do it!
    Hard training has given you self confidence and built a pretty good ego. The body needs that hard training to maintain your toughness. Improper taper can harm your ego and turn your self confidence to mush, but a proper taper can continue to give your body its training rush and keep you on the right track.
    Your taper needs to start immediately after your longest run. It is a 3 week schedule that consists of two easy days, one harder day, then two easy days and a weekend run. Sunday is your hang around day. Do what you want that day, but don't do too much.
    Monday and Wednesday are the easy days, Tuesday is track day for the next 2 weeks, Thursday and Friday are easy days and Saturday your weekend run. Easy days can be rest or run days, but don't do two rest days in a row.

    Week One - Drop to 80% of your weekly training miles.
    Monday and Wednesday - Easy 3 to 6 miles
    Tuesday - Interval Training with Steve at the Dixie Track.
    Thursday and Friday - Easy 3 to 6 miles
    Saturday's run will depend on your weekly mileage. If you trained on 60 or more miles per week than do 15-17 miles. If you trained on less than 60 miles do 10-15. Don't kill yourself. This is rebuilding time.
     

    #19 rickwhitelaw, Sep 28, 2013
    dutchie53, migangelo and Tristan-OH like this.
  20. migangelo

    migangelo Chapter Presidents
    1. Oregon

    Joined:
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    i think that ^ post deserves it's own thread and sticky.

    i nominate it for one.
     

    #20 migangelo, Sep 28, 2013
    rickwhitelaw likes this.
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