It’s Not Natural, and Definitely Not Normal, to Die From Cardiac Arrest: The Death of Caballo Blanco

Discussion in 'Front Page News' started by Barefoot TJ, May 10, 2012.

  1. Neil_D

    Neil_D Chapter Presidents
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    Very interesting thread. I think there are may of us out there that tend to over rule our bodies signals when it comes to feeling tired. Being runners we have a discipline where we have to get out and run so many km per week and we like to increase the distance over time with future goals in mind. I realise that if when it comes time for your run you get that lack of enthusiasm feeling, it may just be the body telling the brain that "hey I need a bit of rest, take a day or two off". Other overtraining signals such as getting colds too frequently are ones I watch out for. I don't think those would give you any warnings of a more serious heart problem though. My resting pulse (in the morning) is around 38 which is probably from 30+ years of running, even in the middle of the day it only gets up to about 50 (which is what it is now as I'm sitting at the PC). I do remember an incident when I was staying with a friend in Minneapolis years ago. I went for a run around one of the lakes on a hot day, quite humid too. When I got back my heart was up near 120-130 at a guess, about 20 minutes later after I'd cooled down my heart was still beating like crazy, it felt very strange. I put it down to heat stress. It sorted itself out after an hour, it did panic me a bit thought.

    Neil
     
  2. Neil_D

    Neil_D Chapter Presidents
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    One of the other things I wondered about was, could it be something to do with minerals lost through sweating that can cause some of the problems? I take regular mineral supplements, mainly magnesium. Is that something that would be sensible to do if we lose lots of fluid while running?

    Neil
     
  3. Bare Lee

    Bare Lee Chapter Presidents
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    I stopped scheduling rest days. I let work/family life and my body schedule them for me, which means once a week on average. Like Neil says, if you're feeling tired or lethargic, take some time off. I also think it's a good idea to follow the 48-hour rule: never do the same exercise consecutive days; rest whatever body part or area you've just worked out for 48 hours. Run one day, and do weights and rowing the next, for example. It's especially important as we age. With all the marathons, ultras, triathlons, and so on, around, we all want be super heroes, but just an hour a day of exercise is enough for general fitness.
     
  4. jogoflap

    jogoflap Barefooters
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    "It seems to me that Micah wouldn't care..."

    That sounds pretty radical, but I agree with you, Robin. Analyzing this to death is not for me. You do what you think is reasonable to stay healthy, and then forget about it. The end will come when it comes.

    Could Micah True have been doing something different to prolong his life? Maybe run less? Live a more conventional life? Would he trade what he did for 58 years, to gain a few more? I doubt it.

    Is our whole point here to live as long as possible? We'll never have the perfect formula for that, and if we did we probably wouldn't want to follow it anyway. Meanwhile we go crazy chasing around the latest recommendations.
     
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  5. Bare Lee

    Bare Lee Chapter Presidents
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    I agree with you Mr. Jogoflap, there is no perfect formula, and most here would agree that quality trumps quantity, but I think it's good to know more or less what our options are. I appreciated the Soc Doc's article as a cautionary note--there could be serious risks involved with over-training, or pushing our bodies to extremely high levels of performance, especially as we age. Some may chose to take those risks, some may not, but it's good in any case to know they may exist.
     
  6. SillyC

    SillyC Barefooters
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    Actually, I have to agree with Longboard in that I have no idea where Soc Doc is getting this information. It doesn't seem to be supported by any evidence or research. I'm also with Longboard, though, in that this is not my area of expertise, and I would appreciate a well-researched piece on this topic. Is this the next part of the installment?

    Science of Sport did just that in '07, but it's 5 years later. Is there more?
     
  7. NickW

    NickW Guest

    I just created a big family controversy over this very thing recently with my wife when discussing the future and what we want done if something should ever happen to one of us. I don't want to live more years at the expense of lower quality of life, she wants more years even if it means lower quality of life. I watched my grandpa die and a friend die that tried to get more years. They got more years, but the rest of the family got many more bad memories of how bad it got and the craziness that ensued. No thanks, not for me. I will live my life and if I can go like Micah, well then I did pretty damn good and I'm happy with that. I try to be as good of a person as I can and be as good of a role model as I can for my kids. I know I've lived a good life so if I go because of something like this, then so be it. To go out doing what you love is a precious thing.
     
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  8. SillyC

    SillyC Barefooters
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  9. Longboard

    Longboard Chapter Presidents
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    But still nothing there correlating the activity of running with the developement of the conditions described.
    I definitly have seen peer reviewed articles that concluded hypertrophy/cardiomyopathy was possibly related to heavy duty cardio training/overtraining, but have never seen anything implying that training or overtraining was linked to coronary artery disease. That is the only part of The Sock Doc's post I was questioning.
    He responded that over training can cause inflamation (I'll buy that), and that inflamation can cause CAD (currently a well researched hypothoses), but I've never seen it taken to that extension before, i.e. train too much and you just may build up atherosclerotic plaques in your coronary arteries as a result.
     

  10. SillyC

    SillyC Barefooters
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    What I recall seeing was a fair amount about cardiac changes resulting from heavy duty training, but it didn't seem to me that it was clear that these changes are truly representative of damage or a disease state. If the same biomarker is present after running AND during a heart attack, it doesn't mean that running is a mini-heart attack. But, again, I'm ridiculously unqualified to read those papers critically.
     
  11. Longboard

    Longboard Chapter Presidents
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    As are we all!
    We need a BRS cardiologist member.
     

  12. Dr. Gangemi_SockDoc

    Dr. Gangemi_SockDoc Barefooters

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    I'll chime in one more time here since there's lots of confusion and now misquoting.

    You agree that overtraining can cause inflammation. But how about oxidation - free radical damage? Good there? (Actually I discussed both.) And you sorta think there's something to the inflammation - CAD link but you don't have the research to prove it fully yet, correct there? How about the link between oxidation and CAD, which is what I mentioned in my last post? Specifically oxidation of lipids to CAD? I even found a research article for that. There's plenty of them. So if I understand correctly you agree that overtraining can cause inflammation (and over-oxidation?) and that inflammation can cause CAD but it's a stretch for you to say that overtraining can cause CAD. Isn't that like saying A=B and B=C but A does not equal C? Oh - and I don't recall once mentioning "atherosclerotic plaques" as you note - but arteriosclerosis.

    Here's your research, I'd expect you to find some holes in it. And yeah, I know it's about oxidation and arteriosclerosis and the protective benefits of aerobic exercise rather than overtaining.
    http://www.elsevier.es/sites/default/files/elsevier/pdf/277/277v45n165a13148982pdf001_2.pdf
     
  13. Longboard

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    The authors of the article never make the stretch of A equaling C either.

    As far as definitions:

    A.D.A.M. Medical Encyclopedia.
    Hardening of the arteries

    Atherosclerosis; Arteriosclerosis; Plaque buildup - arteries
    Last reviewed: May 20, 2011.
    Hardening of the arteries, also called atherosclerosis, is a common disorder. It occurs when fat, cholesterol, and other substances build up in the walls of arteries and form hard structures called plaques.
    Over time, these plaques can block the arteries and cause symptoms and problems throughout the body.
     

  14. Dr. Gangemi_SockDoc

    Dr. Gangemi_SockDoc Barefooters

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    Clearly my mistake for trying to get some members on this board to "think outside the box". Sometimes things are not spelled out exactly and nobody has done exact research, so we must look at the total picture. This is difficult for some due to their training and beliefs. I can tell you that if I based my practice off "research" I sure wouldn't be helping the people I help. I wouldn't think of looking at their shoulder, for example, to address their Achilles Tendonitis. There's no research on that either. Then why does it work? How can something be true if there is no research to say it is so!?

    So I chose to stay out of these conversations. I know I already said this but thought I'd give one more try. If any of you have any questions you can ask on the sockdoc site. I won't be checking in here. This is a bit ridiculous. Does my statement above to our persistent member ever say the research authors say A=C? Definitely not. No, as I tried to spell out almost literally it describes B=C (since A=B was already agreed). But again it is mentioned the jump from A to C. Ugh.

    Also, arteriosclorosis and atherosclerosis, despite what many think, are NOT the same thing. Atherosclerosis is a type of arterosclerosis when there is plaque build-up. Just saying arterosclerosis means there is a hardening and stiffening of the arteries. I don't know if True had this. It was not mentioned and I tried to stick with the facts. For more on this, you can surely find some research to support, or not support, that definition.
     
  15. SillyC

    SillyC Barefooters
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    Well, can you still tell me if what happened to True could have been caused by Chagas disease? I know Chagas can cause heart damage, but can the damage result in LVH? Or can you say, "I don't know" if that is the case?
     
  16. RunningPirate

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    That was me, not too long ago. I was training for a marathon in 2009 and damaged my left Achilles and - after a short break - kept running. I then was starting to feel some discomfort in my right knee (guess I was favoring). Up to a certain point, I would have very happily destroyed my Achilles and knee just so I could complete the race...because I needed to do the whole distance. Somewhere in the middle of the training (I think it was when I near cooked myself because I ran out of water on an 82F day), I realized that was rather extreme - especially since it could lead to the end of doing the one activity I truly enjoy. Now, I try to be more dialed in to what I’m experiencing (being “present” as someone once told me). A friend put it more succinctly: The body sends signals; ignore them at your peril.
    Could running lead me to the same end as Micah? Possibly. Is that going to stop me? Probably not. As stated earlier in this forum, I believe in quality over quantity: I’d rather die at the top of my game than spend the last 10 years of my life in a wheelchair and watching daytime TV until I’m 90 under the guise of “living”.

    [Side note: Only until recently has the Achilles healed up]

    RP
     

  17. Bare Lee

    Bare Lee Chapter Presidents
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    "Hope I die before I get old"
    - Roger Daltrey, age 68
     
  18. Zetti

    Zetti Barefooters
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    Wow...this thread got messy...:eek:
     
  19. barefootn

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    I've enjoyed this thread. We are fortunate to have the doctors explanation and the well thought out responses. Sudden death of athletes is far too common. I know of quite a few good runners who passed away totally unexpectedly.
    Enjoy running as long as you can. At 68 I no longer feel the need to push to win age group awards.
    That being said some speed work is good, and it's still fun to pass people in races, but the pressure is off (until I reach 70;) ).
    My point is that many say it's good to die doing what you love, but I say take care of yourself and enjoy life as long as possible.

    [​IMG]
     
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  20. Bare Lee

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