healthy running seminar w/Cucuzella

Discussion in 'Training Information/Training Regimens' started by migangelo, Jul 28, 2014.

  1. migangelo

    migangelo
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    this past weekend i was fortunate enough to attend the healthy running forum put on by Dr Mark Cucuzella and Jay Dicharry. it was awesome. i learned quite a bit. i learned we have been giving ill informed info to each other. it''s a lot to go into as it was 16 hours of lecture and activities.

    to sum up. don't run until you take care of mobility and stability issues. then strength and finally run. good posture, proper diaphragmatic breathing with proper hip extension by pushing off with your glutes. it works pretty awesome. pretty much everything is in Dicharry's book "'Anatomy for Runners".

    if you can attend then do. if not find a good PT, chiro, or running coach who understands the principles to help you out.
     

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  2. Sid

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    I mentioned Dicharry's book several times last year on the forum, but it was met with a lukewarm reception. I found it to be a good book and very informative.

    I went through the exercises a few times, and was already fairly competent with them. By that point I already had some mileage under my belt, so maybe it would have been more useful early on.

    My problems were related to structural issues caused by my foot type and bunions. Those are beyond the scope of Dicharry's book.

    So the book is a good start. As you indicated, it's a good idea get rehabilitation if needed.
     
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  3. Barefoot TJ

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    It's funny you mention this, because right here on this site, I was slammed for saying the same exact thing.
     
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  4. Sid

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    As much great information and knowledge sharing as there is on this site, we should all remember that with the exception of the docs forum and a few semi-professional athletes and coaches, that we are all laypeople.

    Even if statements are made emphatically and with conviction, it doesn't make them any more true.

    Everything posted on this forum should be taken with a grain of salt, including what I just posted. ;)
     
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  5. Bare Lee

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    Does this mean you're going to listen to me more Mike?
     
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  6. migangelo

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    Did someone just say something to me? ;)
     

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  7. migangelo

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    The way i see it we are on different roads to the same place so there is some intersecting going on.
     

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  8. Bare Lee

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    Yah, I agree. Sorry about the snark, couldn't resist.

    Here's how I see it:

    "don't run until you take care of mobility"
    I call this stretching, either static (e.g., leg up on a wall or handrail, squatting for a few minutes) or dynamic (e.g., leg swings with ankle weights, kicks)

    "and stability issues."
    Stability is best by developed by lifting heavy stuff (forget 'core' exercises), doing balance or agility drills, or martial arts or dancing.

    "then strength"
    Basic strength is the foundation for all athletic performance, as well as quality of life.

    "and finally run."
    I've never run recreationally without also alternating that with strength training and stretching. But it's true, this time around I pushed the running before my stretching and ST had prepared me sufficiently, leading to TOFP and ITBS.

    "good posture,"
    Seriously, I've said this a million times. You need a good athletic posture, relaxed but erect, with just a slight forward lean from the ankles. Attaining a strong back through strength training helps posture quite a lot. Bending the knees slightly is also key.

    "proper diaphragmatic breathing"
    I should probably work on this. I've been really lazy about thinking about breathing. But I know from singing and horn playing that proper diaphragmatic breathing is key. Thanks for the reminder.

    "with proper hip extension by pushing off with your glutes."
    Oh no! He said "pushing off!" Doesn't Mark know this is forbidden in BFR circles? Seriously, the best way to develop this is through speed or hill work. You can't sprint without activating your glutes and extending your hips. Once you train your body to do this, it becomes easier to transfer to slower paces.

    "it works pretty awesome"

    Barefoot running is no different than proper shod running, except that going barefoot makes it easier to do things right (and affords greater sensuous pleasure/tactile stimulation). But all the pro-style sites like Steve Magness's "Science of Running" will say the same thing, and they've been doing this for a long time. So let's start listening to them a bit more, and listen less to all the barefoot running guru nonsense.
     
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  9. migangelo

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    I enjoy the snarkiness.

    Mobility includes stretching but isn't limited to it. Why is the muscle tight? Figure that out and you don't really need to stretch.

    Stability. I should've worked on this from the beginning.

    Strength. Had this and have let it go. Once i work out my muscle imbalances i can get back to it.

    Run. Run easy. Sprint sometimes. Plyometrics when you have a abse and strength. I've literally skipped out on plyo. Pun intended.

    Good posture. Getting better.

    Diaphragmatic breathing. Done. Learned that boxing, kickboxing, and yoga. Finally applying that to everyday living.

    Proper hip extension from glutes. Didn't understand this one until Mark showed us. Reading just didn't translate for me.

    Works awesome. Even with less than ideal technique i had fun. Now i just look forward to being more efficient.
     

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  10. Bare Lee

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    If you have a good article on running with diaphramatic breathing, I'd appreciate it.

    We'll continue to disagree on stretching (and the definition of callus?), but I'm still grateful to you and Jen for tuning me in to the benefits of massaging knots (trigger points)
     
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  11. Sid

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    I'm finding all of this to be a bit absurd. The Tarahumara and professional runners aren't known for being strength athletes or champion kickboxers. If people were truly born to run, the prerequisites should be minimal.

    As with both of you, I've done my fair share of crosstraining. I've found nothing more effective in improving my running, than walking around with a heavy backpack for 2 weeks. (That includes 2 weeks of just running!)

    From a layperson point of view, I can think of no more basic activity than walking and carrying stuff. In Western societies, we don't carry things very often over distances. Other cultures carry food, water, firewood/fuel on a daily basis.

    Why might carrying things improve running? I don't know. I'm wondering if it has to do with improved efficiency. This study indicates that oxygen consumption did not increase until carried weight was above 10% bodyweight. Physics tells us that moving mass through a distance requires energy. If VO2 did not increase, that might suggest that the body adapted and became more efficient. Possibly a more efficient gait? Perhaps, this adaptation carries over to running?
    http://www.acefitness.org/prosourcearticle/3695/ace-research-improve-walking-workouts-with
     
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  12. Bare Lee

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    I think Mark is probably targeting people who are out-of-shape seeking to get back into shape. If you start running as a child and never stop (and have an active lifestyle), then yes, I doubt any of this needs to be considered.

    As for basic strength, I, at least, am not referring to strength athletes (e.g, strongmen, powerlifters, Olympic weightlifters, shot-putters, discus-throwers, etc.--I hesitate to call bodybuilders 'athletes'), and judging from Mark's physique, neither is he. But if you want to jump up from the couch and start running 5Ks, doing some squats and a few other basic lifts will most definitely help improve your form and prevent injury. Some research also suggests that maintaining basic strength throughout life is the single best anti-aging practice. Unfortunately, whenever we mention strength-training, images of Ahnoold, comic book physiques, and absurdly low levels of bodyfat come to mind. But basic strength is for everyone.
     
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  13. Sid

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    I suspect that we are talking past each other a bit. I wholeheartedly agree that strength training is essential for good health and longevity. I greatly appreciate the information that you've posted. I've found it to be extremely helpful, and I owe you a debt of gratitude. If we ever meet in real life, I owe you a beer. (Or do they sell gift cards for beer?!)

    I disagree that traditional strength training (Ah-nold or basic) is substantially helpful for distance running. As you've suggested in another post, running and strength training appear to work different fibers, and exercising one type doesn't necessarily diminish activity using the other.
    http://www.thebarefootrunners.org/index.php?posts/158352

    Here's my hypothesis. The major force that runners must overcome is gravity.
    http://jeb.biologists.org/content/203/2/229.full.pdf

    To simulate increased gravity, one can carry weight (or go to another planet!). Carrying weight while running can predispose one to injury, whereas carrying weight while walking is less stressful. Walking with weight also works the slow twitch fibers used in distance running. Hence, walking with weight may translate better into increased distance running performance, vs. traditional strength training.
     
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  14. mokaman

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    [quote="Sid, post: 158381, member: 1689"To simulate increased gravity, one can carry weight (or go to another planet!). Carrying weight while running can predispose one to injury, whereas carrying weight while walking is less stressful. Walking with weight also works the slow twitch fibers used in distance running. Hence, walking with weight may translate better into increased distance running performance, vs. traditional strength training.[/quote]

    I've never heard of running with weight can predispose one to injury, I like doing long slow run/hike with a backpack in the mountains once in awhile...I usually notice a big aerobic boost afterwards...that reminds me I'm overdue for one those.
     
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  15. Sid

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  16. mokaman

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    I don't know the weight but I carry an Octane Camelbak with a pair of shoes some food and sometimes an extra water bottle plus a few odds and ends...I'd guess between 10 - 20 lbs...but only a guess i don't have any way to check the weight. I run pretty slow probably 11 - 14 min/mile pace plus lots of it is walking....and always in the summer time when its usually 80's to mid 90's...the heat is the real killer so lots of walking...did I mention lots of hills and walking.:)

    Probably something you wouldn't want to do with a 40-50 lb backpack.
     
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  17. Sid

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  18. Bare Lee

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    Likewise, I've learned a lot from you and your knack for uncovering the best, most apposite research papers and links. Like the one you just posted on breathing. You buy the first round, I'll buy the second.

    As for the putative benefits of ST for runners, I'm going off of what a lot of elite-type trainers say, and also my own experience as a recreational runner/lifter. I used to think lifting was mostly for upper body, and running would take care of the legs, but now that I've gotten serious about deadlifts and squats, I've found they really benefit my running. Not so much in terms of running fitness, which, as we've both acknowledged, seems quite a bit different from strength fitness, and involves different kinds of muscle fibers, but more in terms of having (1) a good postural foundation, (2) strong glutes and hammies, and (3) good mobility. I've also been impressed with how much squats and deadlifts, which I used to consider lower body exercises, really work the upper body too.

    I like the loaded walking idea though, and intend to experiment with it.
     
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  19. migangelo

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    They had pics and talked about how Mo Farrah lifts heavy. I believe he squatted some 200lb while weighing 135. They recommended lifting heavy for strength and medium weight with speed for power. You're doing one footed jumps for however long you go so you need strength.

    No articles on breathing, just practice. You won't like the answer but when i started running since i had no strength or stamina for it. i just forced myself to go slow enough to nose breath. Now i can race doing it. I have to almost sprint before i start breathing through my mouth. I am honestly surprised we had the discussion before because i learned through boxing and kickboxing to control your breath to punch with more power. In through the nose and out your mouth when you throw a punch. I would think you too learned that in martial arts. Also in boxing they tell you to keep your jaw shut to protect it and that breathing through your mouth also shows your tired. Two things you don't want.

    There's different kinds of stretching. Cold, static, no. Warm dynamic, sure. You just might want to stop and think about why the need to stretch. Muscle overworked? Which isn't doing its job? Still cold? Too short? I don't stretch for stretch for stretching sake but only as necessary.
     

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  20. Bare Lee

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    Yah, I forgot to mention power cleans are supposed to be really good for sprinters and explosive power, so maybe for endurance too?

    1.5BW is a good intermediate standard for squats (http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/SquatStandards.html), especially if you're doing them ass-to-grass and not just breaking parallel. Abide has recently talked me into doing the former. That's really the way to go. You probably already know this, but for anyone else reading this, never do 1/4 or 1/2 squats--it's bad for the knees. Get down until your hammies are touching your lower leg.

    Never got any breathing advice, but maybe I missed it with my mediocre Japanese language ability?! In Japan karate is a blue collar thing, whereas kendo, judo and aikido are more milddle-class, so it was a struggle at times to understand the Osakan dialect spoken by the working class men in my dojo. It had nothing to do with the Japanese taught in my textbooks, that's for sure. We did breath out of our mouths while striking or kicking though, I remember that much. Also, keeping your jaw tucked in and your head down of course.

    I like to be limber, that's why I stretch. A happy by-product is that it helps prevent injuries and improves circulation and recovery. Most pro athletes and trainers seem to know this. You might want to stop to think about why you don't stretch, and why you're constantly dealing with "muscle imbalances" and injuries ;) .

    Warming up is important for any physical activity, of course, not just stretching.
     
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