Geoff Roes Goes Off on Minimalist and BF Ultra Running
- Thread starter bubba hotep
- Start date
Ok, after reading it I dont
Ok, after reading it I dont think hes anti minimalist, he just doesnt think its practical to run 100 miles of very techical terrain in a shoe with little to no padding.
I have to agree with him there. But on a smooth, non technical trail, or some form of quality pavement (ie NOT CHIP SEAL) I think, for those of us who are used to it, minimalist is the only way to go!
I did post a comment showing the other side of the story, or at least my perspective of the other side... lol.
Ok, after reading it I dont think hes anti minimalist, he just doesnt think its practical to run 100 miles of very techical terrain in a shoe with little to no padding.
I have to agree with him there. But on a smooth, non technical trail, or some form of quality pavement (ie NOT CHIP SEAL) I think, for those of us who are used to it, minimalist is the only way to go!
I did post a comment showing the other side of the story, or at least my perspective of the other side... lol.
I don't know if I agree with
I don't know if I agree with that. I mean, Tony Krupicka runs in MT101 (now MT110 - must be nice to design your own shoe!) and that is a pretty minimalist shoe. I agree there are certainly limits to what you can run BF but I think that you can run a long ways in pretty minimalist shoes, if you have trained for that. But on the flip side, I am pretty sure that my 100k time running BF this weekend will be slower than if I had done the same run in my MT101s. So there is some truth to what he is saying but I still think he goes a bit overboard in his post.
I don't know if I agree with that. I mean, Tony Krupicka runs in MT101 (now MT110 - must be nice to design your own shoe!) and that is a pretty minimalist shoe. I agree there are certainly limits to what you can run BF but I think that you can run a long ways in pretty minimalist shoes, if you have trained for that. But on the flip side, I am pretty sure that my 100k time running BF this weekend will be slower than if I had done the same run in my MT101s. So there is some truth to what he is saying but I still think he goes a bit overboard in his post.
I find you don't tend to get
I find you don't tend to get blisters in minimalist shoes, i haven't run an ultra yet but can run 20+ miles in my Merrils without the slightest sign of a hot-spot.
Wearing minimal shoes also force you to step lightly, i'm not sure how this will translate if you have to carry a lot of water and backpack over a technical trail though.
i suppose the argument from a minimalist runner would be strong feet in minimal shoes vs weak feet in strong shoes.
I find you don't tend to get blisters in minimalist shoes, i haven't run an ultra yet but can run 20+ miles in my Merrils without the slightest sign of a hot-spot.
Wearing minimal shoes also force you to step lightly, i'm not sure how this will translate if you have to carry a lot of water and backpack over a technical trail though.
i suppose the argument from a minimalist runner would be strong feet in minimal shoes vs weak feet in strong shoes.
To me its like comparing an
To me its like comparing an average driver in something like a BMW M3, or a Nissan Skyline Vs a good driver in a Chatterham or an Ariel Atom.
In the case of the M3 and Skyline your depending more on all the fancy auto corrections performed by the car itself. So it doesnt take any exceptional driving ability to go around a course in a relatively quick time.
On the other hand, thr Chatterham and the Ariel Atom are literally the most minimalist sports car one can get. You rely exclusively on yourself and your driving ability to get you across the finish line in a fast time. You learn how to drive and not how to be driven. You learn how to react and interact and not just tag along for the ride unaware of the subtle changes going on around you.
If your not aware of the cars Im talking about, look up pictures of a BMW M3, then look up pictures of an Ariel Atom. One is clearly more minimalist than the other!
To me its like comparing an average driver in something like a BMW M3, or a Nissan Skyline Vs a good driver in a Chatterham or an Ariel Atom.
In the case of the M3 and Skyline your depending more on all the fancy auto corrections performed by the car itself. So it doesnt take any exceptional driving ability to go around a course in a relatively quick time.
On the other hand, thr Chatterham and the Ariel Atom are literally the most minimalist sports car one can get. You rely exclusively on yourself and your driving ability to get you across the finish line in a fast time. You learn how to drive and not how to be driven. You learn how to react and interact and not just tag along for the ride unaware of the subtle changes going on around you.
If your not aware of the cars Im talking about, look up pictures of a BMW M3, then look up pictures of an Ariel Atom. One is clearly more minimalist than the other!
Barefoot TJ wrote:You most
I'm glad you said that TJ because i was about to treat myself to a pair of VFFs, i feel a little hidden behind my Merrels, most people just think i'm running in normal shoes, allbeit with a very strange form, i mean if your not heal striking there's somethin' up with ya' right?
Anywho it would be nice to get a reaction or two by wearing some monkey feet, i still might buy a pair just to slowly drip feed the idea of minimal running into the very reserved British psyche.
Barefoot TJ said:
I'm glad you said that TJ because i was about to treat myself to a pair of VFFs, i feel a little hidden behind my Merrels, most people just think i'm running in normal shoes, allbeit with a very strange form, i mean if your not heal striking there's somethin' up with ya' right?
Anywho it would be nice to get a reaction or two by wearing some monkey feet, i still might buy a pair just to slowly drip feed the idea of minimal running into the very reserved British psyche.
Be warned. Lots of people
Be warned. Lots of people get blisters on the inner arch area and the toe tips with VFFs, but you should try them. They feel great, as long as you don't have Morton's Neuroma like I do.
Be warned. Lots of people get blisters on the inner arch area and the toe tips with VFFs, but you should try them. They feel great, as long as you don't have Morton's Neuroma like I do.
I haven't run anything like
I haven't run anything like an ultra, but I've read that BF Ted has done several (Leadvilles) and runs in his huaraches or VFFs. I respect his opinion on this kind of stuff. Does anyone know what he runs on or in these days?
On another side to this, it seems like running BF style, keeping your form light and loose and posture perfect would be a reasonable thing to aspire to in a long race. (Not that there's much "reasonable" about treating one's body to that kind of abuse.) Am I way off and nobody is able to maintain form through that amount of exercion?
I haven't run anything like an ultra, but I've read that BF Ted has done several (Leadvilles) and runs in his huaraches or VFFs. I respect his opinion on this kind of stuff. Does anyone know what he runs on or in these days?
On another side to this, it seems like running BF style, keeping your form light and loose and posture perfect would be a reasonable thing to aspire to in a long race. (Not that there's much "reasonable" about treating one's body to that kind of abuse.) Am I way off and nobody is able to maintain form through that amount of exercion?
I just read Geoff's blog and
I just read Geoff's blog and most of the comments. I respect these ultra runner's opinions and can see their point of view. They are awesome athletes. I have also heard comments from the elite road runners and their blogs on shoes are similar. None of them are going to do anything that might hurt their times, so why would they want to play with minimalism?
I have not heard anything about running for fun. Barefoot running is fun and it feels good.
There is some strange pull about completing an ultra and it is a goal of mine. I have no time goals, just to finish with a smile on my face. In my case it is going to happen as minimal as possible.
I would love to hear some comments from BRS members who are completing ultras barefoot or in minshoes.
Rick W.
I just read Geoff's blog and most of the comments. I respect these ultra runner's opinions and can see their point of view. They are awesome athletes. I have also heard comments from the elite road runners and their blogs on shoes are similar. None of them are going to do anything that might hurt their times, so why would they want to play with minimalism?
I have not heard anything about running for fun. Barefoot running is fun and it feels good.
There is some strange pull about completing an ultra and it is a goal of mine. I have no time goals, just to finish with a smile on my face. In my case it is going to happen as minimal as possible.
I would love to hear some comments from BRS members who are completing ultras barefoot or in minshoes.
Rick W.
Maybe Jason will chime in.
Maybe Jason will chime in. Hes pretty much the minimalist ultra guru...
Maybe Jason will chime in. Hes pretty much the minimalist ultra guru...
JosephTree wrote:On another
Maintaining form is essential and really the only way to maintain form for that long is to run a whole lot. You have to train your body to maintain form when you are tired. It kind of goes hand in hand because you probably won't be able to run lots of training miles without good form and you'll need that form to maintain over long distances.
Back to the topic at hand, I find it is much easier to maintain form bf and then less so as you work up from there. I could never maintain form in regular shoes and was always hurt.
JosephTree said:
Maintaining form is essential and really the only way to maintain form for that long is to run a whole lot. You have to train your body to maintain form when you are tired. It kind of goes hand in hand because you probably won't be able to run lots of training miles without good form and you'll need that form to maintain over long distances.
Back to the topic at hand, I find it is much easier to maintain form bf and then less so as you work up from there. I could never maintain form in regular shoes and was always hurt.
rickwhitelaw wrote:I would
I've only run ultras down here in Texas and Louisiana and I've only seen one course that is bf friendly and only one that would require something like the NB 101 and everything else could be run in any minimalist option you would like. I really think it depends on terrain and not that you need more shoe to run more miles.
rickwhitelaw said:
I've only run ultras down here in Texas and Louisiana and I've only seen one course that is bf friendly and only one that would require something like the NB 101 and everything else could be run in any minimalist option you would like. I really think it depends on terrain and not that you need more shoe to run more miles.
I hate to say this but I
I hate to say this but I kinda of agree with him to some degree and only from my very own limited and personal experience. Running my 50 I was doing great, as far as my feet, through 25 miles on a pretty technical course with lots of roots, rocks, streams, hills, off camber trails etc...
However there was a point where the Merrills started to just not be enough. The feet were sore and taking a pounding. If I could have run in any other shoe without getting some serious heel blisters, I would have put them on. I have a couple of other pairs and tehy are only good for 10 miles max before I get hot spots.
There is a downside to all that padding and elevated heel and I see this as a MAJOR NEGITIVE and Geoff didn't mention it. The more tired you get, the sloppyer the form. With high heels, the risk of twisting an ankle is huge, I speak from experience. I have NEVER twisted an ankle wearing the Merrill Trail Gloves. It is hard to twist an ankle when you are ON the ground instead of above it.
Each to their own. Geoff is awesome as is Anton. They are trail gods allmost and could wear stilletto heels and still get my respect.
I hate to say this but I kinda of agree with him to some degree and only from my very own limited and personal experience. Running my 50 I was doing great, as far as my feet, through 25 miles on a pretty technical course with lots of roots, rocks, streams, hills, off camber trails etc...
However there was a point where the Merrills started to just not be enough. The feet were sore and taking a pounding. If I could have run in any other shoe without getting some serious heel blisters, I would have put them on. I have a couple of other pairs and tehy are only good for 10 miles max before I get hot spots.
There is a downside to all that padding and elevated heel and I see this as a MAJOR NEGITIVE and Geoff didn't mention it. The more tired you get, the sloppyer the form. With high heels, the risk of twisting an ankle is huge, I speak from experience. I have NEVER twisted an ankle wearing the Merrill Trail Gloves. It is hard to twist an ankle when you are ON the ground instead of above it.
Each to their own. Geoff is awesome as is Anton. They are trail gods allmost and could wear stilletto heels and still get my respect.
Would you respect me in high
Would you respect me in high heels...? Or at least throw some dollars?
And talking about these elite ultra guys is a little askewed... Yes, your form starts slacking as you get tired, but when will the elite guys get to that level of tiredness? 150 miles? 200 miles?
Would you respect me in high heels...? Or at least throw some dollars?
And talking about these elite ultra guys is a little askewed... Yes, your form starts slacking as you get tired, but when will the elite guys get to that level of tiredness? 150 miles? 200 miles?
Chaserwilliams wrote:Would
You put on some high heels, Run a trail and get it in print, post it here and I will have the utmost respect for you.Chaserwilliams said:
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