Concurrent Strength Training & Running 2015: Eight-Week Workout Cycle IV

#63
Sid said:
http://tria.com/about/pro-sports-affiliations/

Looks like they work with the pros. That's encouraging.
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Yah, at my neighborhood's 4th of July celebration, I met a couple who said their PT swears by the doc I'm going to see at Tria. They say he's the best. I already knew I was in good hands because the friend who recommended him has a lot of contacts in the sports community here.

Rippetoe says you can still squat with a meniscus tear:
http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/mark-rippetoe-q-and-a/15504-squat-meniscus-injury.html
http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/mark-rippetoe-q-and-a/8459-meniscus-tear.html

In my own experience, I've sensed that squats are actually therapeutic, and running and deadlifts are harder on the joint. I have some knee wraps arriving today, they should help a little too. I won't try squatting until I see the second doc next week. The first doc recommended replacing squats with lunges and leg presses, but I can't see how that would be better. I think he's just another medical professional who's bought into the "squats are bad for the knees" myth. Not saying I will be able to squat, but I don't want to dismiss the possibility out of hand either.

I think running will still be out, but I'll withhold final judgment until I talk to the second doc. In the meantime, I'm exploring what a post-running reality might look like. Biking, for sure, and rowing some, since I already have a rower. Now I'm wondering about Ellipticals. Anyone have any experience with them? The Gazelle Supreme looks OK, so I'll try to get to Sports Authority or someplace and try it out: http://www.amazon.com/Gazelle-GSUPCAT-Supreme-Step-Machines/dp/B00CWI3GL8/ref=lp_2592418011_1_3?srs=2592418011&ie=UTF8&qid=1436303436&sr=8-3

In any case, the knee has felt pretty goodthe last few days, close to 100%, although now the left knee feels a little unstable.
 
#64
I'm not a big fan of the ellipticals, but you could also consider a stair stepper although they are more expensive. Or maybe one of those ski machines? I used to love that concept 2 vertical rowing/ski machine.

BW squats have been very therapeutic for my knee lately. It seems like a good way to keep the scar tissue flexible. I tried adding some weight and it was a little unsteady but not painful. DL's were no problem at all for me.
 
#66
Abide said:
I'm not a big fan of the ellipticals, but you could also consider a stair stepper although they are more expensive. Or maybe one of those ski machines? I used to love that concept 2 vertical rowing/ski machine.

BW squats have been very therapeutic for my knee lately. It seems like a good way to keep the scar tissue flexible. I tried adding some weight and it was a little unsteady but not painful. DL's were no problem at all for me.
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Abide said:
I have also been doing lunges, they are also surprisingly effective from a flexibility standpoint.
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Well, a stair stepper would involve more knee flexion. The advantage with the elliptical is that the knees stay relatively straight, so possibly a good thing to alternate with rowing and biking. I'll look into ski machines too, thanks for the suggestion.

Good to hear you're healing up. Have you ever tried RDLs or SLDLs? I've tried both now, and I think I prefer SLDLs, although it's a little earlier to tell for sure. I think a combination of SLDLs and Rack Pulls might work as a good substitution for conventional DLs.

Yah, lunges seem good for flexibility, but they do involve more knee flexion so I dunno. I guess it'll take some experimentation to see what my knee can and cannot tolerate, but based on past history, it might just be one of those things that randomly flares up once in a while. It's too bad I didn't take it more seriously this time around. I should've seen a doc right away after I noticed the swelling, but I think the shingles kind of made me reluctant to admit I had something else going south as well. On hindsight, I've probably had this meniscus issue in both knees for at least the last several years, ever since I first felt the pain after running a mile in, 2012?

Right now the knee feels close to 100%, so it's kind of tempting just to go out and run a mile on it. It's going to be a long week until I get to see the second doc next Thursday.
 
#67
Bare Lee said:
Well, a stair stepper would involve more knee flexion. The advantage with the elliptical is that the knees stay relatively straight, so possibly a good thing to alternate with rowing and biking. I'll look into ski machines too, thanks for the suggestion.

Good to hear you're healing up. Have you ever tried RDLs or SLDLs? I've tried both now, and I think I prefer SLDLs, although it's a little earlier to tell for sure. I think a combination of SLDLs and Rack Pulls might work as a good substitution for conventional DLs.

Yah, lunges seem good for flexibility, but they do involve more knee flexion so I dunno. I guess it'll take some experimentation to see what my knee can and cannot tolerate, but based on past history, it might just be one of those things that randomly flares up once in a while. It's too bad I didn't take it more seriously this time around. I should've seen a doc right away after I noticed the swelling, but I think the shingles kind of made me reluctant to admit I had something else going south as well. On hindsight, I've probably had this meniscus issue in both knees for at least the last several years, ever since I first felt the pain after running a mile in, 2012?

Right now the knee feels close to 100%, so it's kind of tempting just to go out and run a mile on it. It's going to be a long week until I get to see the second doc next Thursday.
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Ha same here about the knee feeling better, today is the first day I have had the urge to run. I'm gonna give it to Sunday and then just start doing a gradual walk-run buildup. And that's gonna be like 90% walking, but long distances if all goes well.

I'm not sure I know the difference between RDLs and SLDLs? I'll look it up. I do like SLDL I do them as a warmup with my trap bar actually. It's surprising how much weight you can actually pull that way. And higher reps seem to work well too. I don't think I would do weighted lunges, but when my 20 minute timer makes me stand up its a nice alternative to bw squats.

How's the nerve pain? Is it almost gone?
 
#68
Abide said:
Ha same here about the knee feeling better, today is the first day I have had the urge to run. I'm gonna give it to Sunday and then just start doing a gradual walk-run buildup. And that's gonna be like 90% walking, but long distances if all goes well.

I'm not sure I know the difference between RDLs and SLDLs? I'll look it up. I do like SLDL I do them as a warmup with my trap bar actually. It's surprising how much weight you can actually pull that way. And higher reps seem to work well too. I don't think I would do weighted lunges, but when my 20 minute timer makes me stand up its a nice alternative to bw squats.

How's the nerve pain? Is it almost gone?
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Sounds good on your knee front. I think walking breaks are excellent for ITBS, and I found it useful to stretch the ITB quite often too. The main thing is to keep it from tightening up from the repetitive stress, so both walking and stretching can help.

I've just learned about the difference between RDLs and SLDLs myself. RDLs start from a rack position, just below the knee, deracking to just above the knee, and the bar never touches the floor, so the hammies' stretch reflex comes into play. The bar should also stay close to or even touch the legs. SLDLs, in contrast, start off the floor, and should be deloaded after each rep. I think the bar goes out further from the legs too. Some say you can round the back at the bottom position of the SLDL too, but I think it's wise to do both exercises with a neutral back. In both exercises the knees should be slightly bent, which is the way I would do them anyway. So "Stiff-legged" Deadlift in the SL of SLDL is probably more descriptively accurate than "Straight-legged" Deadlift. I think I read you should be able to pull 65-75% of a conventional deadlift, so yeah, it's a pretty good load. Today I'll start my worksets at 175 and build up form there.

The nerve pain is still there, but it's more annoying than distracting now. It hasn't felt really bad for almost two weeks I think. I still take Ibuprofen for it, but just 400 mg twice a day, instead of 800 mg three times a day. My sense is that it will linger for another month or two, but it's very manageable now and doesn't interfere with normal functioning. I've been sleeping well lately. I think the constant pain for two months really wore me out, more than I recognized at the time. I feel like my energy is coming back, and my lifting feels a lot better and more motivated. I still have a dry, hacking cough that started about 3-4 weeks ago. The whole family had it, but it's lasting a long time for me, probably because the Shingles has weakened my immune system, and I wasn't sleeping well.

In a way, letting go of PRs might improve my workouts a bit, but really, I'm seeing that my lifting routine won't have to change too much, especially if I can do squats again, which Rippetoe thinks is certain. So the question is more one of how heavy to go with the squats. I'm thinking if I stay in the 5-8 rep range, I should still be able to progressively microload the lift, and continue to build up progressively to a projected 300-pound plus 1RM squat. I'm not sure if I'll ever again actually attempt a 1RM, but perhaps I can claim repetition PRs. In theory, there shouldn't be too much additional stress to the meniscus if the surrounding musculature, tendons, and ligaments continue to strengthen as the loads increase. I dunno, but 275 several weeks ago felt incredibly solid.

Anyway, I'm almost thinking of doing everything five reps on Monday and Friday, and eight reps on Wednesday, and avoid the 1-3 rep sets altogether, for everything, for optimal joint health and work capacity. I don't think I will ever adopt more of a bodybuilder routine--I just hate doing a lot of rinky dink lifts--but 3x5 or 3x8 for the main lifts and some assistance feels like a very good compromise between a strength and hypertrophy protocol. Plus it keeps things real simple. I know you suggested higher rep squats, but my sense is that a lot of reps might also aggravate the knee almost as much as heavy loading. In any case, according to Rippetoe and others (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drsquat12.htm), we can't really afford not to squat.

Here's what a revised workout plan might look like:

2015 Cycle 4 Week 3--15.07.05.jpg
 
#70
Abide said:
Thanks for the explanation, small difference but its there. I like that plan, its simple. I should just follow yours. I need to follow something starting next week. I still like to do singles and doubles for the DL for some reason?

Hey check out this article for a press variation you can use. Savickas?

https://www.t-nation.com/training/overhead-press-your-body-weight
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Yah, we'll see. Might be a good idea to keep the 5-8-3 weekly wave for 'performance' lifts, and then just do everything else five reps, two sets a piece. Get in a little more variety, I dunno. It will probably take another few weeks of experimentation, but I can feel a good modification of the old routine coming together. Of course, if the doc I see next week says squats and deadlifts are OK, then that will change things a bit, but I think a little more variety will still be a good idea. The trick, as always, is to get a nice balance and yet still be able to do everything in less than an hour. I also don't like having to think too much, so if, for example, each lift had a different variation each workout, it would be too much for me. In any case, I'm back doing something close to a fullbody routine again, and that's pretty satisfying.

That press variation looks interesting, but it's not a whole lot different from the unsupported seated press, and with my small power rack, it would be harder to set up. The idea of working in BN Presses is something I've been intrigued with for a while though. I'm pretty sure I have decent shoulder mobility. One possibility would be working in the variations on Wednesday, the higher rep day, like dips subbed in for the bench press, BN OHP for presses, OH Squats (if I can do them) for the Back Squat, and so on.

Here's one guy who thinks you can still run on a torn meniscus if properly managed: http://www.9run.ca/2011/08/running-with-torn-medial-meniscus.html

Here's an interesting idea for outdoor aerobic work: http://www.streetstrider.com/summit-8r-p-161.html
I just wired $619 for one direct out of the factory. That's less than half the retail price, so if I don't like it, I can probably unload it for no loss or even a small profit.

I think I like the SLDLs better than the RDLs. I tried Rack Pulls yesterday, but they didn't feel right. I might try High Pulls instead, or even the dreaded Upright Row.

I don't know if I'll ever try singles or doubles again for DLs and Squats, but we'll see what the second doc says. I'm thinking of always keeping them in the 5-8 range, but you're right, the singles and doubles are really fun. It just feels good to lift a really heavy bar once in a while, and I'm sure it's good for the CNS to have to marshall one's forces like that. Seems like there's a wide range of opinion on what a meniscus tear can mean for continued activity. I realize now that I've been managing it reasonably well for a couple of years, so maybe I can just continue and rest it whenever it feels achy or stiff? I'm somewhat haunted by the memory of my very solid 275 squat a month or so ago. Didn't feel anything wrong at the time, so there's a lot of desire to do it again.

For lifting, I respond well with goals, so the goal for this cycle will be either getting my OHP up, building up my back, or both. It's been surprising how much I've lost on the OHP. Some of it is the difference between the Tall Kneeling version and the Seated version. I wrote my first doc and his assistant said Tall Kneeling should be OK with a pad, so I dunno. I'll wait to see what the second doc says, but I was really enjoying that version. Another possibility would be to do standing presses with a cambered bar, but even then, the palm of my hands can touch my garage ceiling, so I'd have to bend my knees, and the weights would probably swing a bit. Maybe I could just use Chains?
 
#71
Abide said:
So what's your recommendation for the cardio stuff? That's were my issues came from, although one was from wiping out. Which technically is a risk on the bike regardless.

I haven't had a bona fide gym related injury in a long time, since back when I did CF if I remember correctly.
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sorry for the slow reply. we're still moving between houses and doing the 5-year backlog of weeding, painting, blah blah blah. poor excuses.

i think for the cardio, i would try really slow running.

i am not going for walking here. i find that (for me) walking (especially barefoot or "minshod") has a much different and more complicated set of movements than running does. and possibly more stressful. for example, it seems like you have to throw your lower leg out in front of you, then stop it, then set it down. once it is down, there is a quirky two or three phase thing while your lower leg is in front, under, and then behind the main part of you. your ankle and hips have to do additional and more calibrated motion to keep your foot on the ground and your body from pogo-sticking. because you're moving more slowly (or maybe it is the lower cadence or something to do with the cadence/step-length regime) and have to support yourself throughout, you end up with those three pieces which don't always mesh together nicely and have the weird very beginnings and endings.

whereas, a running motion (even when running slower than a normal walk) doesn't have the throwing part (when the foot is in the air; you're really just dragging your knee forward instead of kicking the foot out in front) and has only the middle of the three phases. the knee stays bent and doesn't have the violent-ish stop right before the foot sets(/?crashes) down and you pick your feet up before the strange re-extension of the knee when your feet would be behind you in a walk. thus, your ankles just play shock absorber rather than having additional structural and propulsive roles. and, to beat on the ancient standard barefoot running advice, i've never heard of walking in place, only running in place. that's because it's really hard and clunky and feels weird to do. sometimes i wonder if the shoddy-runner knee injuries come not from the longitudinal heel crash shock with locked out knees, but from the rotational crack as the knee hits its internal bumper or whatever that constrains how far you can straighten your leg.

then, when you want to increase the intensity, you have two dials you can turn: speed and distance according to your whim and time availability.

so, i guess i'm saying to run really, really slowly and make your walking more like running. and maybe try running backward, too [you can't heel strike backward! :) ]. i remember reading in a plyometrics textbook about having people walk/run backward as part of treating knee injuries. it makes you use muscles differently and gives you a gentle plyo sort of thing or something. and, it would be good to have in the repertoire for ultras when something starts hurting from overuse in the forward direction. :) didn't OneBiteAtATime finish out the last 20 miles of a 50-miler last year using the "relentless backward progress" technique? (potawatomi trails, 2014, i think: http://thebarefootrunners.org/threads/potawatomi-50m-trail-run.16004/)
 
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#72
Finished my pvc bumper plate racks. Works nicely. Convenient. Space efficient.

Squatting at my 1rm for the press. Have to dump the barbell behind me after a set, which means that it's time to order the power rack.

Knees no longer a problem. Stretching helps. Also, have temporarily replaced my jogs with walks, while I'm acclimating to the squat.

Might not need as many bars as I originally thought, especially if I pair up the exercises, instead of doing a circuit.
Squat, press
Bench, row
Pulldown/chinup, dead
 
#73
Ordered another bar, Ohio Power Bar. Looks nice.

First one was a Rogue 2.0, which being multipurpose, seemed to have a bit of whip to it.
Was a bit challenging to hold onto with deads. Maybe the new one will be better?

The Rogue closeout section seems to vary. I was going to order another Rogue 2.0, but it's no longer listed. Looks like I got the last Ohio Power Bar. :)

 
#74
Sid said:
Ordered another bar, Ohio Power Bar. Looks nice.

First one was a Rogue 2.0, which being multipurpose, seemed to have a bit of whip to it.
Was a bit challenging to hold onto with deads. Maybe the new one will be better?

The Rogue closeout section seems to vary. I was going to order another Rogue 2.0, but it's no longer listed. Looks like I got the last Ohio Power Bar. :)

Click to expand...
If you're going to order a third bar, maybe try the Ohio Power Bar?
 
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#76
#77
I'm no expert on meniscal tears, but there doesn't appear to be good evidence that supplements are effective.
http://www.orthop.washington.edu/?q=patient-care/articles/sports/arthroscopic-meniscus-repair.html

I like this website for reading about supplements.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/herb_All.html

Physical therapy?
https://drjengunter.wordpress.com/2...th-care-and-our-love-affair-with-the-scalpel/

These claims appear to be dubious.
http://www.thekneepainguru.com/meniscus-tear-treatment-a-holistic-approach/

I give Costco brand Glucosamine to my old dog, and it seems to perk her up. Then again, it could be that I put the pill in a treat pocket.
Since, I have it on hand, I've tried glucosamine myself on and off, and I can't say that I've noticed a difference. However, I may be younger in comparison, as far as dog years go!
 
#78
After measuring a bit more, I think that I'll go with this rack. It's a popular and well-reviewed model, which will be good in case I ever want to sell it. The EliteFTS rack at the gym is 30" deep, also.
http://www.roguefitness.com/rml-390f-flat-foot-monster-lite-rack

I'm planning on getting two additional crossmembers, one for the front at the top and one in the back at the upper third, then move the pullup bar to the top. That should reduce lateral sway.

I've decided against plate storage on the rack. I'm not using bands, so I shouldn't be lifting up the rack. The rack is already going to be 300+ pounds. The more I thought about it, the more I realized that plate storage on the rack is going to limit space inside the rack.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=150904153

I don't have room for the 690, with built in storage.
http://www.roguefitness.com/rml-690-power-rack

I'm fine with building more PVC plate racks. Something like this is convenient enough.
http://s185.photobucket.com/user/sic0048/media/20141007_165358_zpszddpfizf.jpg.html

Total will be about $1250, rather than the $1650 with the other setup.
 
#79
#80
"Landscape" orientation of the plywood would look like this. However, the guy had to put a smaller piece in front, since his
bench extends a bit futher. My bench would fit, but my toes would hang off the edge, and that would be distracting.
http://www.modernjeremiah.com/home-gym-update-january-16th-2015/

I think I'll keep the plywood in "portrait" orientation after all. I'll keep a 1-2 foot lip in front of the rack, and that should keep it from tipping during reracking of squats.

I tried out the Ivanko collars. Very nice. There was some movement, when dumping the bar after squats, but much less then without them. I don't feel entirely comfortable about the safety aspects about dumping the weights, so I'll probably order the power rack this weekend. Hopefully, I'll get it by next weekend!
 
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