Concurrent Strength Training & Running 2015: Eight-Week Workout Cycle III

Discussion in 'Training Information/Training Regimens' started by Bare Lee, Apr 25, 2015.

  1. Bare Lee

    Bare Lee
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    Yah, I've always thought of lifting as a pm activity. Later afternoon has always worked best for me when that time slot is feasible. I like the combination of looking forward to the workout throughout the day, lifting when my body is completely warmed up and well-fueled, and then showering and relaxing over dinner as I eat my animal flesh and veggies and have a well-earned glass of wine or beer. But there's so much that can go wrong with that time slot. First thing in the morning is great scheduling-wise, but energy and motivation for anything but aerobic exercise is hard at that time of day. Seems like it would be easier to hurt yourself lifting at that hour too. It takes my brain at least 30 minutes, and usually a cup of coffee and some breakfast, before it's fully present.

    Glad to hear the healing continues. I'm going to see a doctor today to see if there are any other pain management options. All the options I'm aware of so far have serious drawbacks. I try to maintain the "it's the journey, not the destination" attitude, but yesterday I was getting really frustrated. It really hurt, and it didn't feel like I was getting better. The uncertainty is unsettling, plus this is the third or fourth setback in something like nine months. It's getting old.

    And it's not just the pain, it's the cumulative lack of decent sleep, and lack of appetite, that's starting to wear me down, both physically and mentally. One thing about the Gabapentin, it helped me sleep through the night. Now it's kind of a Catch-22 where I don't exercise because I can't physically or pharmaceutically, or just don't feel like it, which in turn diminishes my ability to sleep at night. I'm ready to cave and go back on the Ibuprofen if the doc today can't offer any better ideas. Still, the possibility of long-term kidney, liver, or stomach damage is scary. So maybe half doses of the hydromorphone? That makes me drowsy, but I think it's easier on the guts than Ibuprofen. Today so far it hasn't been too bad, so that helps.

    Yah, that was actually the plan yesterday. I was going to take about 25% off everything, across all the rep-counts, just to see if I could get in a full session with all six lifts, but I just didn't feel up to it at the end of the day. One way or the other, I think once I can get back at it with decent motivation and energy, I'll give up on the idea of greater volume and just focus on getting in three sets for each lift until the loads come up and stabilize and I can get in a decent workout in an hour or less. It might take me all of Cycle IV to get there, depending on how much longer this neuralgia sticks around. The right knee should be ready pretty soon, I might even test it tomorrow. It would be good to do something, anything, even at extremely light loads.

    The more radical idea isn't really program-hopping, but would be something like maintaining everything at 75% across all rep counts (that is, take 75% of 1RM as the base for calculating the 1-3RM, 5RM and 8RM percentages), instead of trying to build the loads back up to where they were, and add sets, maybe even four sets for each lift on Monday and Wednesday. So the loads would be relatively easy, but the volume a little harder to manage. Once I master the volume and can do everything in an hour, I would then reintroduce the micro-loading, but perhaps still keep the 1RM at 90-95% of its true value. Kind of a Wendler approach. It would be a sort of one step back two steps forward idea, with the goal of being able to lift more in 6-12 months than I would be able to do with less volume. And of course, with lighter relative loads, there would be much less chance of injury or overtraining, although I might maintain the intensity levels of Friday's workout (100%, 95%, 90% of my true 1RM, not 90% of it).

    In any case, with the time off, it's easy to question one's approach. Too much time to think. You're absolutely right though, what I was doing in Cycle II was working. No real need to fix what ain't broken, but then again, a little further experimentation might yield even better results, and it would be done in the context of getting back into shape anyway, so no real time or mass lost if I give up on it quickly.
     
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  2. Abide

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    Got it, the 75% is probably a better starting point than 20lbs. I read an article about why we should be lifting light weights to failure, and from that perspective I don't think doing the higher volume plan is going to hurt any.

    Hopefully you can get the drug/pain conundrum managed quickly. To be honest I go through the same thought process with ibuprofen. I still haven't worked up the courage to take them during a race. And then there are some running friends who pop it like candy. I may end up giving into it next week if the knees starts causing me real grief.

    It's interesting you say that about sleep and appetite. I have been focusing a lot on sleep lately thinking that is the cause for my laziness, but I have also been cutting calories to drop weight. Which is working but seems to also be the problem with lacking energy. Any idea how to lose weight without calorie restriction?

    Tonight I am going to lift and try out a new idea, which will be similar to the 6 lifts with some small tweaks. A quick layout below.

    Day 1
    DL EMOM x 20 @ 140kgs
    Then 3 x 10 of
    Pull ups
    Bench
    Rows
    Press

    Day 2
    Squat 3 x 3 @ 8-9RPE
    The 3 x 10 of
    Pull ups
    Bench
    Rows
    Press

    Day 3
    Farmers x 2 @ 100 kgs
    Hip Thrusts
    Pull ups
    Bench
    Rows
    Press

    Then after 4 weeks I'll switch the DL and squats, and do
    DL 3 x 3 @ 8-9RPE
    Squats EMOM x 20 @ 100kgs

    This will be just to focus on maintaining the 140kg pull and 100kg squat till after Leadville and having limited lower work. Then I will start pushing the weights a little more next cycle.
    The upper stuff will all be relatively light with the focus on building general upper body strength without causing any irritation of the shoulder.
     
  3. BroadArrow

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    i'm still here, just not doing anything because i'm too busy making the neighbors mad by tearing out the giant overgrown invasive weed bushes and ruining their privacy. of course, there is an entire extra lot between their house and ours, so it isn't really about privacy so much as claustrophobia induction (and if you really want privacy, you can do something on your side of the line and/or keep your bushes from hanging over my side and killing my raspberries...). in any case, outdoor dinner party season is over due to the onset of heat, rain, and mosquitoes. and by the time the fall outdoor season rolls around, my newly planted fruit trees will either be dead as a doornail or have grown up nicely to make a more attractive screen for them anyway.
     
  4. Bare Lee

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    Got it, the 75% is probably a better starting point than 20lbs. I read an article about why we should be lifting light weights to failure, and from that perspective I don't think doing the higher volume plan is going to hurt any.

    Yah, it's so confusing, all these different training protocols. For some reason, I've allowed myself to be convinced of Nuckols's argument for higher volume and even hypertrophy at the intermediate level. The whole idea of establishing both a work capacity base and a mass base. On the other hand, you've got to do what you enjoy, so you keep coming back for more. Bodybuilder protocols in general seem really unpleasant, but I do think I gain something from having an eight-rep day. Now it's a question of whether I can deal with greater volume. 2-3 sets has always felt about right, 4-5 require greater effort, but we'll see if lighter loads offset the mental burden of doing more sets somewhat. Hopefully I'll be able to experiment a little this week before I make any decisions about how to proceed in Cycle IV.

    Hopefully you can get the drug/pain conundrum managed quickly. To be honest I go through the same thought process with ibuprofen. I still haven't worked up the courage to take them during a race. And then there are some running friends who pop it like candy. I may end up giving into it next week if the knees starts causing me real grief.

    Well, the doc ruled out the possibility that either Ibuprofen or Gabapentin could be causing my knee to swell. So it's either from the running or lifting, which doesn't make sense since it wasn't an acute injury. He also pooh-poohed the idea that Ibuprofen could be causing any damage to my internal organs within the time frame I'll be taking it, at least without any prior kidney or liver condition. Seems like most people in the medical establishment don't buy the argument that Ibuprofen has negative effects. So is it just internet buzz and ideology? In any case, I took Gabapentin last night and slept like a baby. I just popped some Ibuprofen too, because even though the pain hasn't been as bad as on Monday, it would be nice not to feel the little jolts. I really does wear you down. Hopefully I'll be able to get in some semblance of a workout later today. I'll probably hold off on the squats and deadlifts though, although it's temping to just try them light . . .

    The doc also said about three months is the time it takes to heal up from the postherpetic neuralgia, so I could have another month of this, at least. It was good to get a guesstimate. I was beginning to think I might be one of those unlucky bastards who has it for years. I still might be, but at least now I can be patient for another 5-6 weeks. I'm in my eight week now, also the eight week of this training cycle. It would be nice it would fit into Cycle III perfectly and be rid of it next week.

    It's interesting you say that about sleep and appetite. I have been focusing a lot on sleep lately thinking that is the cause for my laziness, but I have also been cutting calories to drop weight. Which is working but seems to also be the problem with lacking energy. Any idea how to lose weight without calorie restriction?

    I dunno, in my experience, I've always lost or maintained a healthy weight simply by exercising six times a week, an hour each time. I've only seriously dieted once, and it kind of sucks. And I didn't diet while trying to get strong or run far. I just did light machine weights and walked a lot. I can't imagine what hell those bodybuilders go through to lose all their body fat while still retaining all that muscle mass. The whole drugs/fake tan/posing/bikini bottoms thing is ridiculous, but I do admire them for their discipline and determination. I think for you, you'd have to be hyper scientific about your nutrition if you want to train hard and lose weight fairly quickly. For me, the secret will be getting my running back on track, but here i sit, with yet another setback/niggle to work through. It was frustrating yesterday down by the river watching everyone run while I walked.

    I think lack of quality sleep has also been linked to weight gain.

    Tonight I am going to lift and try out a new idea, which will be similar to the 6 lifts with some small tweaks. A quick layout below.

    Day 1
    DL EMOM x 20 @ 140kgs
    Then 3 x 10 of
    Pull ups
    Bench
    Rows
    Press

    Day 2
    Squat 3 x 3 @ 8-9RPE
    The 3 x 10 of
    Pull ups
    Bench
    Rows
    Press

    Day 3
    Farmers x 2 @ 100 kgs
    Hip Thrusts
    Pull ups
    Bench
    Rows
    Press

    Then after 4 weeks I'll switch the DL and squats, and do
    DL 3 x 3 @ 8-9RPE
    Squats EMOM x 20 @ 100kgs

    This will be just to focus on maintaining the 140kg pull and 100kg squat till after Leadville and having limited lower work. Then I will start pushing the weights a little more next cycle.
    The upper stuff will all be relatively light with the focus on building general upper body strength without causing any irritation of the shoulder.

    That looks like a real good plan given your current goals and injuries. Lighter loads will be good for your shoulder, get the blood to the tissue, without taxing the joint too much. Outside Magazine had an interesting article on ultrarunning and overtraining yesterday btw: http://www.outsideonline.com/198636...1&spJobID=581521787&spReportId=NTgxNTIxNzg3S0.

    Broad Arrow, you should start a thread with HappyBirdSong about yardwork training.
     
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  5. Barefoot Dama

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  6. Bare Lee

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  7. Barefoot Dama

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  8. Bare Lee

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    Thanks again, but those seem to be recommendations for shingles. I don't really have shingles any more. I have what is called "postherpetic neuralgia" which is the pain that persists after the shingles rash has healed. The pain is caused by nerves that have been damaged or aggravated by the virus.

    If I have to take a painkiller, or pain manager in the modern parlance, what would you recommend? Is acetaminophen a better option than Ibuprofen?
     
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  9. Barefoot Dama

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    I don't believe one is better than the other-they are both bad.
    I think this info was on a previous link that I posted. It sounds promising for you PHN. Look more into homeopathic treatments maybe you could find something useful. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/complementary-medicine/200811/eliminate-nerve-pain-naturally
     

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  10. Bare Lee

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    Thanks again, that's quite helpful. I ordered a bunch of those vitamins/supplements. Hopefully they'll help enough that I can get by just on them.
     
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  11. Abide

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  12. Bare Lee

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  13. Abide

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    Ha understood.

    My knee is still fucked, I think next weeks race is gonna be a crash and burn. Too bad cause I was really looking forward to it.

    I read that article and yeah I could totally understand how the overtraining would impact ultra runners to a higher degree. I wonder if that also extends to regular putz-asses like me.
     
  14. Bare Lee

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    Sorry to hear the knee is still screwy. We're both in a sort of when it rains it pours phase.

    Yah, I doubt it applies to you, just thought I'd pass it along in case you missed it. My problem of course has been undertraining over the last nine months, due to all the setbacks. My right knee swelling is almost gone, so time to get back at it, but I'm still mystified about how it happened.

    My thoughts about how to proceed in Cycle Four are shaping up:

    1.) Any time I've trained consistently for one or two months, I've made decent gains. So before I consider anything else, make sure I have a plan that I can do consistently, i.e., not too much of volume, frequency, or intensity. OK, it's obvious that a balance between those parameters is necessary, but what is the right balance? I think I already found a balance that works for me in Cycle II, so no real need to mess with things: Six lifts, three times a week, varying intensity via varying rep counts. In addition, I think I will throw out any consideration of what lift drives another, or which lifts are more important, and just make sure to get in at least three sets of each lift, except in the case of rows, where I'll probably stick to doing 2-3 sets of P Rows and two sets per hand of 1DB rows. I think I will let each lift progress on its own, and put the Iron Ratio on the back burner for a while. I will still put the Squats and Press first though, and make sure my greatest effort goes towards them.

    2.) Instead of adding in more volume, as per Nuckols's recommendation, if I have time, I think I would be better off adding in mobility and/or assistance exercises that emphasis greater mobility/ROM. Maybe ultra basic programs like Rippetoe's or Wendlers work for younger guys, but I think I would be well-served by programming in mobility more, and not just leaving it as something I hope to get around to.

    3. I will start everything at 90% of my 1RMs at the end of Cycle III, and build up from there. This will help me make sure I quickly establish full workouts again and help me regain some work capacity. I will de-emphasize longterm goals, like a 400-pound deadlift by the end of the year, and make simply getting in a full week of workouts the primary goal.

    4.) For running, I think I will try the ED, first-thing-in-the-morning program again, starting with just a mile per day as the goal. By the end of the cycle, it would be great if I could run three miles 5-6 times a week, and then build on that in the next cycle, either in terms of pace or distance or both.
     
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  15. Sid

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    I have the opportunity to drive 2.5 hours to a local distributor of bumper plates. I'm looking at their 260lb sets. I'm thinking about getting 3 sets to minimize setup time between sets and exercises.

    I think between the three sets, I'd have enough weight to leave on the bars for bench, squat, and dead. Does that sound about right?

    I'd keep the bench rests bar at the back of the power rack, and the squat bar at the front. The deadlock bar would be outside the power rack.
    (My dumbbells are still more than sufficient for the press. I do rows and pulldowns on the bowflex.)
     
  16. Bare Lee

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    Wow, that'd be a big investment, but the convenience would be great. Whether or not three sets of 260lbs is right depends on how much you're lifting of course. Are you getting different kinds of bars?

    Definitely post some pics when you've got it all set up.
     
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  17. Sid

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    Definitely a big investment, but it should be worth it, for convenience. Right now, I can get through my workout in about 1 hour with the quick change dumbbells. I suppose, it's a matter of spending more $$$ to save time. Worth it over the long haul, I think. I've been doing my own lawn care since my lawn guy disappeared, so that saves quite a bit. I do some of the basic, but high priced stuff on the car: pads, rotors, plugs, filters.

    I've been looking at various bars, and this seems to be well reviewed. So, I guess three? $$$ (sigh)
    https://joelxfit.wordpress.com/2015/02/17/review-the-vulcan-standard-20kg-olympic-barbell/

    I don't buy the latest phone or tablet or whatever, so I guess it's all about priorities. A coworker was saying how much he liked his Apple watch, because it saved battery life on his Iphone 6.

    I figure that this equipment will outlive me!
     
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  18. Bare Lee

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    Oh yeah, it's all about preferences/priorities. I wasn't trying to guilt-trip you or anything. That sounds like a great set-up. One thing, instead of getting exactly the same bar for each lift, you might look into a bar specifically designed, for example, deadlifting. Probably doesn't make much different at our level, but since you have to get three bars anyway, you might as well experiment a bit with different types.
     
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  19. Sid

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    Any suggestions? I thought about this, but wasn't sure that I know enough about each exercise to know what qualities to look for with each one.
     
  20. Sid

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    Maybe this?
    https://www.t-nation.com/training/specialty-bars-for-strength-and-size

    I stopped by that local gym, filled out their injury waiver with my contact info. They seem busy. I've been trying get a response to get scheduled for training. I left msgs and sent an email. I'm going to head back on Mon, to pay for and schedule a few sessions.

    Maybe I'll wait and see if they have any thoughts, before I buy any bars. I still need to clear out the spare bedroom and get the power rack anyway.
     

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