Concurrent Strength Training & Running 2015: Eight-Week Workout Cycle III

[Sid]

Hey everyone, thanks for all the suggestions! I don't want to get too far ahead of myself. I'm just doing a bit of window shopping.

I still need to clear the junk out of the spare bedroom (or at least move it upstairs to my workout room). I'm going to relocate the weights to the first floor.

Also, I'm planning to take some lessons to ensure proper technique. Hopefully, summer should be a good time, as there should be less traffic getting around town.
http://orlandobarbell.com/about-brian-schwab-2/

 

[Bare Lee]

Understood, now you guys have me thinking about picking up the pull down attachment for my rack.

Swiss bar is a fail for bench and press. It still irritates the hell out of my shoulder. I'll probably end up having to make a trip to the doc. However it is fantastic for pendlay rows.

Bummer, glad to hear you like it for the rows though.

I'm still waiting on the T-Grip folks.

It's been five weeks, I would see a doc.

Hey everyone, thanks for all the suggestions! I don't want to get too far ahead of myself. I'm just doing a bit of window shopping.

I still need to clear the junk out of the spare bedroom (or at least move it upstairs to my workout room). I'm going to relocate the weights to the first floor.

Also, I'm planning to take some lessons to ensure proper technique. Hopefully, summer should be a good time, as there should be less traffic getting around town.
http://orlandobarbell.com/about-brian-schwab-2/

It would be interesting to hear about your experiences with a trainer. Indeed, you will raise the expectation of more frequent participation here . . .
And don't forget the pics of your new set-up once it's all set up.

 

[Abide]

Bummer, glad to hear you like it for the rows though.

I'm still waiting on the T-Grip folks.

It's been five weeks, I would see a doc.

I'm going to a chiro today, I'll see what he thinks. I am a little nervous about really knowing what's going on and if there will be permanent damage. I can't imagine taking an extended time off for surgery. It's definitely getting better just not "fast" enough for me. And I am missing the bench and press.
But speaking of which I read something about floor presses and I think this might be a doable lift for me for now. The most pain when I push back when the bar is on my chest. Maybe a floor press' restricted range of motion will help. I'll try it out tonight/tomorrow. I might also try it with the swiss bar to get more of a tricep hit.

 

[Abide]

I'm going to a chiro today, I'll see what he thinks. I am a little nervous about really knowing what's going on and if there will be permanent damage. I can't imagine taking an extended time off for surgery. It's definitely getting better just not "fast" enough for me. And I am missing the bench and press.
But speaking of which I read something about floor presses and I think this might be a doable lift for me for now. The most pain when I push back when the bar is on my chest. Maybe a floor press' restricted range of motion will help. I'll try it out tonight/tomorrow. I might also try it with the swiss bar to get more of a tricep hit.

Well after doing some reading and getting a "diagnosis", it seems like the floor press is the way to go.

http://www.ericcressey.com/newsletter169html

 

[Sid]

After seeing the Scooby video on floor press, that's how I was doing it with dumbbells. After a while, I got tired of the awkward positioning on the floor. I now do the same movement and range of motion on the bench. Your mileage may vary. Good luck!

 

[Abide]

After seeing the Scooby video on floor press, that's how I was doing it with dumbbells. After a while, I got tired of the awkward positioning on the floor. I now do the same movement and range of motion on the bench. Your mileage may vary. Good luck!

Yeah the floor press actually caused the same amount of pain as a full bench. The lift off portion is the hardest for some reason. I think just doing a short range of motion as you do on a bench may be a better idea. Or ISO holds initially as Cressey describes.
Chiro said 6-8 weeks minimum for a grade 2 AC sprain.

 

[Sid]

Chiro said 6-8 weeks minimum for a grade 2 AC sprain.

Hope you make a quick and complete recovery.

 

[Sid]

It would be interesting to hear about your experiences with a trainer. Indeed, you will raise the expectation of more frequent participation here . . .
And don't forget the pics of your new set-up once it's all set up.

As you might recall, I've intentionally tried to stay away from tracking progress and numbers too closely. I'll see what I have to add to the discussion, after I start the lessons!

 

[Sid]

Out of town, and using elastic tubing for my workout. Not ideal, but better than nothing. Tricky, as the tension along the range of motion is different than free weights or bowflex. Also, have to find the optimal position for the door anchor and my body to leverage and exercise the desired body part. Able to get a fair upper body workout, but essentially useless for lower body. So, I just ended up doing lunges.

 

[Bare Lee]

Yeah the floor press actually caused the same amount of pain as a full bench. The lift off portion is the hardest for some reason. I think just doing a short range of motion as you do on a bench may be a better idea. Or ISO holds initially as Cressey describes.
Chiro said 6-8 weeks minimum for a grade 2 AC sprain.

Is that 6-8 weeks from now or from the day of injury? We're both six weeks into our mishaps, right? In any case, seems like you should just lay off the presses until the sprain is 80-90%, then begin working them back in with light loads. By pressing the presses, you're probably just prolonging the healing process, seems to me.

As you might recall, I've intentionally tried to stay away from tracking progress and numbers too closely. I'll see what I have to add to the discussion, after I start the lessons!

Yah, I know what you mean. I'm happy to be off the mileage train, but it was fun for a while building up weekly totals. Now I'm on to lifting PRs, but none of that is important. Just general discussion would be nice, or perhaps weekly summaries about how the new techniques are working out. I think everyone should feel free to contribute however they like. The detailed training logs aren't a requirement, it's just cool to see what other people are up to and how they're integrating the running and lifting.

 

[BroadArrow]

i've been "integrating the running and lifting" by doing neither for the last few days. basically, we just bought a house with a big garden plot and fruit trees (no-one complains about bare feet at closing when you are handing over a giant check, apparently) and so have been busy tearing out unwanted bushes and invasive shrubs and stuff. you know, "functional training". wait, it's not training because you're actually *doing* something.

i'm having trouble figuring out where to put the gymnasium in the new house, though. the upstairs/bedroom floor has these magical 7.5-foot ceilings which mean less air to heat in the winter, but less room for overhead presses (i.e., infeasible). the basement is even shorter (like 7-foot) and i don't know if there is enough space in the garage to squeeze it in. grr...

 

[Bare Lee]

i've been "integrating the running and lifting" by doing neither for the last few days. basically, we just bought a house with a big garden plot and fruit trees (no-one complains about bare feet at closing when you are handing over a giant check, apparently) and so have been busy tearing out unwanted bushes and invasive shrubs and stuff. you know, "functional training". wait, it's not training because you're actually *doing* something.

i'm having trouble figuring out where to put the gymnasium in the new house, though. the upstairs/bedroom floor has these magical 7.5-foot ceilings which mean less air to heat in the winter, but less room for overhead presses (i.e., infeasible). the basement is even shorter (like 7-foot) and i don't know if there is enough space in the garage to squeeze it in. grr...

My garage ceiling is seven feet tall too. My power rack just barely fits, but I can do everything except standing overhead presses. You'll just have to learn to do them sitting or kneeling. I've found tall kneeling presses aren't too bad. I double double up a yoga mat to put under my knees. And the rack height is exactly the same as my bench press rack height, so it's easy to load. I just use two rack heights, one for the presses, and one for the squats.

Fruit trees sound fun. I've never understood why people don't put more productive landscaping in their yards. In Mozambique I had 7-8 different fruit trees in my yard there. It's always special to eat something you've seen grow up and mature.

 

[Sid]

I sit on the bench while I do presses.

 

[Abide]

Is that 6-8 weeks from now or from the day of injury? We're both six weeks into our mishaps, right? In any case, seems like you should just lay off the presses until the sprain is 80-90%, then begin working them back in with light loads. By pressing the presses, you're probably just prolonging the healing process, seems to me.

Yah, I know what you mean. I'm happy to be off the mileage train, but it was fun for a while building up weekly totals. Now I'm on to lifting PRs, but none of that is important. Just general discussion would be nice, or perhaps weekly summaries about how the new techniques are working out. I think everyone should feel free to contribute however they like. The detailed training logs aren't a requirement, it's just cool to see what other people are up to and how they're integrating the running and lifting.

From injury time, but its pretty dependent on how bad the ligament damage is. Seems too like it creates some permanent damage when it comes to benching.

Oh well. I am still dealing with this other pile of shit ITBS injury. I have been throwing everything at it and nothing helps. I probably should get off the bike for while. I'm gonna switch back to running in luna's primarily and see if that helps at all. I am very suspicious of how much it gets called a lack of strength and flexibility issue.

 

[Bare Lee]

From injury time, but its pretty dependent on how bad the ligament damage is. Seems too like it creates some permanent damage when it comes to benching.

Oh well. I am still dealing with this other pile of shit ITBS injury. I have been throwing everything at it and nothing helps. I probably should get off the bike for while. I'm gonna switch back to running in luna's primarily and see if that helps at all. I am very suspicious of how much it gets called a lack of strength and flexibility issue.

Don't get too down about the bench. With the right approach, you might be able to rehab the injury to 100%, but it could take a lot of time, like a year or more. And anyway, I've become convinced the bench press is overvalued. I would almost say that out of the six basic lifts, the bench press is the least important.

I agree with you about the strength/flexibility diagnosis. Seems like the PT culture has infiltrated all things fitness these days. Recall my Chiro told me my right glute pull last winter was the result of imbalance or weakness. I asked her how someone who can squat close to 300 pounds could have weak glutes. She just looked at me, and then recommended pistol squats.

For my ITBS injury, I think I benefited most from stretching frequently, both the ITBS stretch and the piri formis stretch. And then while rehabbing it, I would run short distances, until it began to niggle, then stop, stretch it, and walk the rest of the way. Little by little I was able to run farther and farther, until it was gone for good. Took several months.

 

[Abide]

Don't get too down about the bench. With the right approach, you might be able to rehab the injury to 100%, but it could take a lot of time, like a year or more. And anyway, I've become convinced the bench press is overvalued. I would almost say that out of the six basic lifts, the bench press is the least important.

I agree with you about the strength/flexibility diagnosis. Seems like the PT culture has infiltrated all things fitness these days. Recall my Chiro told me my right glute pull last winter was the result of imbalance or weakness. I asked her how someone who can squat close to 300 pounds could have weak glutes. She just looked at me, and then recommended pistol squats.

For my ITBS injury, I think I benefited most from stretching frequently, both the ITBS stretch and the piri formis stretch. And then while rehabbing it, I would run short distances, until it began to niggle, then stop, stretch it, and walk the rest of the way. Little by little I was able to run farther and farther, until it was gone for good. Took several months.

Thanks, that sounds like a real logical way to progress through it. I wonder if it reacts similar to linear strength training, the progression of distance I mean. I can go a pretty good distance before it starts to get inflamed but once it gets there and I am running downhill it's just excruciating.

Yep that's exactly my confusion with the strength training, they say to do hip thrusts.. ok I can load 315 and knock out 10 reps pretty easily. Bird dogs, I have no problem doing 50 in a row and I quit cause its just too boring. So I can't imagine that strength really is a problem? I also think I am pretty flexible too, so I am not sure that's an issue.

I really am sold on it just being a shoulder imbalance chain reaction and its a bona fide overuse issue? But who knows and yeah pistols, seriously if one squat hurts my knee its pistol squats.

Yeah I have gotten through the denial stage about the bench and am moving in to the slow gradual rebuild stage. Thanks for the encouragement, I hope at the very least I can press without pain.

How are the shingles coming along?

 

[Bare Lee]

Thanks, that sounds like a real logical way to progress through it. I wonder if it reacts similar to linear strength training, the progression of distance I mean. I can go a pretty good distance before it starts to get inflamed but once it gets there and I am running downhill it's just excruciating.

Yep that's exactly my confusion with the strength training, they say to do hip thrusts.. ok I can load 315 and knock out 10 reps pretty easily. Bird dogs, I have no problem doing 50 in a row and I quit cause its just too boring. So I can't imagine that strength really is a problem? I also think I am pretty flexible too, so I am not sure that's an issue.

I really am sold on it just being a shoulder imbalance chain reaction and its a bona fide overuse issue? But who knows and yeah pistols, seriously if one squat hurts my knee its pistol squats.

Yeah I have gotten through the denial stage about the bench and am moving in to the slow gradual rebuild stage. Thanks for the encouragement, I hope at the very least I can press without pain.

How are the shingles coming along?

I've found the progressive approach works for pretty much everything. Just find out what you can do, and then try to add to it little by little. It's all about getting the dosing right. Just enough to stimulate an adaptive response, but not more than your body can handle at any given time. The problem is being patient when you're used to doing more. This time around, I've been a bit more patient about getting back into running shape, and it's working pretty well. I stop running as soon as I feel my legs getting tight, then try to add 1/4 to a 1/2 mile the next time. My guess is that the point at which my legs start to get tight is symptomatic of having achieved the stimulus required for adaptation. Any more than that is probably overloading past the point that I can usefully recover and adapt from the stimulus before the next run. When I look back at the last year and think how much further I would be along in both my running and lifting if I had simply listened to my niggles, stopped, and lived to battle another day, I think I would be much farther along by now. Especially the glute/sacro-iliac injury, where I was warned one rep before the injury. If I would've stopped before the next rep, I would've only have lost that day's training stimulus a bit. Instead, I lost months.

Yesterday my right calf and then hammie and glute began to tighten up on my walk/run. So today I'm skipping deadlifts, maybe squats too.

Anyway, back to your ITBS. If you can run 10 miles, for example, before it starts to act up, then run 8-9, stopping every mile or so to stretch. And then be super cautious about slowly adding in more distance, like give yourself a few weeks to build back up to the point where it last gave you trouble, and see if it's OK. If it is OK, then continue building up slowly. For me, the point of ITB irritation was about four miles, if I remember correctly. So I danced around the 3-5 mile range for several months before I was able to exceed it, but once I could, I was pretty much home-free.

I'm also a little suspicious about the imbalance diagnosis, but the kinetic chain is a complicated thing, for sure.

My shingles have been healing little by little, but this weekend was kind of bad. It started with waking up at 3am Friday morning with really bad stabbing pain in my left armpit. It had been OK Tuesday through Thursday, so I was a little depressed to have it get worse again. I took some more Gabapentin, which knocked me out for the day, and made Friday afternoon's workout all but impossible. The rest of the weekend wasn't much better.

Nonetheless, the burning sensation in my skin is all but gone, and the area that's still affected by the stabbing pain is always decreasing. I don't have any pain in my back any more, and very little in my chest. It's mostly my armpit and the underside of my left upper arm.

And today, so far, it feels pretty good. I haven't taken any pain killers yet. It would be great to get off the Ibuprofen. I'm fully functional now, and hopefully the pain will be gone for good in a few weeks. The stabbing pain is kind of like a little lightening storm, but today it's dull enough that I can mostly ignore it.

 

[Abide]

I've found the progressive approach works for pretty much everything. Just find out what you can do, and then try to add to it little by little. It's all about getting the dosing right. Just enough to stimulate an adaptive response, but not more than your body can handle at any given time. The problem is being patient when you're used to doing more. This time around, I've been a bit more patient about getting back into running shape, and it's working pretty well. I stop running as soon as I feel my legs getting tight, then try to add 1/4 to a 1/2 mile the next time. My guess is that the point at which my legs start to get tight is symptomatic of having achieved the stimulus required for adaptation. Any more than that is probably overloading past the point that I can usefully recover and adapt from the stimulus before the next run. When I look back at the last year and think how much further I would be along in both my running and lifting if I had simply listened to my niggles, stopped, and lived to battle another day, I think I would be much farther along by now. Especially the glute/sacro-iliac injury, where I was warned one rep before the injury. If I would've stopped before the next rep, I would've only have lost that day's training stimulus a bit. Instead, I lost months.

Yesterday my right calf and then hammie and glute began to tighten up on my walk/run. So today I'm skipping deadlifts, maybe squats too.

Anyway, back to your ITBS. If you can run 10 miles, for example, before it starts to act up, then run 8-9, stopping every mile or so to stretch. And then be super cautious about slowly adding in more distance, like give yourself a few weeks to build back up to the point where it last gave you trouble, and see if it's OK. If it is OK, then continue building up slowly. For me, the point of ITB irritation was about four miles, if I remember correctly. So I danced around the 3-5 mile range for several months before I was able to exceed it, but once I could, I was pretty much home-free.

I'm also a little suspicious about the imbalance diagnosis, but the kinetic chain is a complicated thing, for sure.

My shingles have been healing little by little, but this weekend was kind of bad. It started with waking up at 3am Friday morning with really bad stabbing pain in my left armpit. It had been OK Tuesday through Thursday, so I was a little depressed to have it get worse again. I took some more Gabapentin, which knocked me out for the day, and made Friday afternoon's workout all but impossible. The rest of the weekend wasn't much better.

Nonetheless, the burning sensation in my skin is all but gone, and the area that's still affected by the stabbing pain is always decreasing. I don't have any pain in my back any more, and very little in my chest. It's mostly my armpit and the underside of my left upper arm.

And today, so far, it feels pretty good. I haven't taken any pain killers yet. It would be great to get off the Ibuprofen. I'm fully functional now, and hopefully the pain will be gone for good in a few weeks. The stabbing pain is kind of like a little lightening storm, but today it's dull enough that I can mostly ignore it.

Well that's good news so far for this week, hopefully it keeps getting better.

The imbalance issue was my generic diagnosis that was kind of supported below? Idk, like I said the one big change was the shoulder injury, everything else including volume was pretty similar when the issue started? The shoulder injury was the only awkward thing and it did see to cause me to run funny.

What do you think is the cause? I'm not sure about the biking volume because I never have any pain issues on the bike. I am going to try dropping my seat a bit tonight on the ride home.

Notes On latissimus dorsi muscle:

The "lats" are not often mentioned as contributing to the ITB syndrome in any way. But they clearly can contribute to tightness and have attachments to structures related to the ITB syndrome - the gluteus maximus via the gluteal fascia. Tightness here can restrict motion at the hips and alter the efforts of the gluteal muscles to keep the hips level.

Arm swing involves altering the length (and tension) within the latissimus dorsi and connects upper body to the torso and lower body. It's function is to either move the arm or to "raise the trunk in brachiation". Brachiation means "arm swinging" and is how apes, monkeys and chimps (primates) move through the trees. If you are writing a paper and looking for a fancier term, swinging through the trees is also called "arboreal locomotion". The latissimus dorsi also comes into play when you do a chin up, machine pull down, or a "row" with weights.

An article in the Journal of Biomechanics published in March, 2013 (Carvalhais et. al.) reviews force transmission and demonstrated an increase in "passive hip stiffness" and altered hip relaxed position. This gives credence to the theory that they are involved to some degree in the ITB syndrome. This also offers a rationale for why the side stretch is effective in assisting in the treatment.

http://www.drpribut.com/sports/spitb.html

 

[Bare Lee]

Well that's good news so far for this week, hopefully it keeps getting better.

The imbalance issue was my generic diagnosis that was kind of supported below? Idk, like I said the one big change was the shoulder injury, everything else including volume was pretty similar when the issue started? The shoulder injury was the only awkward thing and it did see to cause me to run funny.

What do you think is the cause? I'm not sure about the biking volume because I never have any pain issues on the bike. I am going to try dropping my seat a bit tonight on the ride home.

Notes On latissimus dorsi muscle:

The "lats" are not often mentioned as contributing to the ITB syndrome in any way. But they clearly can contribute to tightness and have attachments to structures related to the ITB syndrome - the gluteus maximus via the gluteal fascia. Tightness here can restrict motion at the hips and alter the efforts of the gluteal muscles to keep the hips level.

Arm swing involves altering the length (and tension) within the latissimus dorsi and connects upper body to the torso and lower body. It's function is to either move the arm or to "raise the trunk in brachiation". Brachiation means "arm swinging" and is how apes, monkeys and chimps (primates) move through the trees. If you are writing a paper and looking for a fancier term, swinging through the trees is also called "arboreal locomotion". The latissimus dorsi also comes into play when you do a chin up, machine pull down, or a "row" with weights.

An article in the Journal of Biomechanics published in March, 2013 (Carvalhais et. al.) reviews force transmission and demonstrated an increase in "passive hip stiffness" and altered hip relaxed position. This gives credence to the theory that they are involved to some degree in the ITB syndrome. This also offers a rationale for why the side stretch is effective in assisting in the treatment.

http://www.drpribut.com/sports/spitb.html

Nice researching! Yah, I agree, the one variable in your case was the introduction of the injured shoulder to your running, and now you've found support for how this may affect your ITB. While I tend to be suspicious of the whole 'imbalance' argument, because I think it's overused, in your case, it seems like a likely cause. The problem now is that you've already irritated the ITB, so it would seem the cure is (1) doing the usual ITB (side) stretch and piri formis stretch, but also (2), somehow correcting for the imbalance your shoulder injury is causing. Seems to me, one approach to the latter is, if your shoulder and ITB can handle it, doing rows or deadlifts or anything else that might strength the upper back and postural muscles while you're running. I would still try running shorter distances too though, perhaps more frequently. I think you also linked to a BRS thread about ITB when you were giving me advice on my ITBS. Someone on that thread suggested running faster, and I think this may have helped me too.

 

[Abide]

Nice researching! Yah, I agree, the one variable in your case was the introduction of the injured shoulder to your running, and now you've found support for how this may affect your ITB. While I tend to be suspicious of the whole 'imbalance' argument, because I think it's overused, in your case, it seems like a likely cause. The problem now is that you've already irritated the ITB, so it would seem the cure is (1) doing the usual ITB (side) stretch and piri formis stretch, but also (2), somehow correcting for the imbalance your shoulder injury is causing. Seems to me, one approach to the latter is, if your shoulder and ITB can handle it, doing rows or deadlifts or anything else that might strength the upper back and postural muscles while you're running. I would still try running shorter distances too though, perhaps more frequently. I think you also linked to a BRS thread about ITB when you were giving me advice on my ITBS. Someone on that thread suggested running faster, and I think this may have helped me too.

Yeah I don't have any problems with the IT when I do anything else, except run longer. And the back work is pretty much a doable at this point. I am really enjoying the pendlay rows with the swiss bar. It's amazing how much more stable you can hold your back posture and limit cheating with it. Plus it's much easier to get the full ROM since your shoulders aren't fighting against you at the top of the lift like they do with a regular grip.
I think I will also take your daily running advice for the rest of this week and then try to get a longer run in on Sat. Then I can gauge if the regime has been helping. If it hasn't I am going to take off the following two weeks from everything and see if that will cure it before my 110k on the 27th.

Something else I have been working on are wider stance squats (I'm gonna follow the linear strength template and do 3 x 5 and increase 5lbs every session till I hit a plateau) and doing lunges every 20 minutes. I really think the ITBS is a eccentric related injury so I am hoping focusing on more eccentric lifts will help condition the band?