Concurrent Strength Training & Running 2015: Eight-Week Workout Cycle I

Discussion in 'Training Information/Training Regimens' started by Bare Lee, Jan 3, 2015.

  1. BroadArrow

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    Barefooters
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    ok, i think that was likely the last workout of the cycle for me, so it is full on assessment time.

    i worked out after volleyball, so i backed off a little on the squat weight and my shoulders were feeling a little tired (so ... much ... blocking ...) so i figured i would rest those too. but we might as well see what can be done on the deadlift, right? and maybe a little on the final faux chest press thing...

    that led to a 250lb deadlift (i.e., new max). i think my grip is the weak point since it was almost slipping out of my fingers as i clunked it back down. great: i'm basically a "novice" now according to the exrx.net propaganda.

    i was able to do a single on the chest press at #14 which works out roughly to 120lbs (but you're starting at the bottom instead of the top). i'm pretty sure #15 wouldn't have gone anywhere. in the past, i think i've been able to do a single at #15. anyways, that still counts roughly as "untrained" i think. :)

    time for ratio fun!

    man! i can never get pictures to work! anyways, what the image shows is actual/guesses of 250, 140,120,195,90,90lbs for deadlift,squat,bench,pullup,barbell row,normal press. if i key off of the deadlift as idealized at 1.00, i get the following ratios to ideal: 1.00,0.67,0.77,1.39,0.82,0.90 . trust me, it is easier to interpret in a spreadsheet table.

    so, the ordering goes weakest = squat, bench, row, press, deadlift, pullups = strongest. since i think pullups are neat, i'll probably keep hitting those "throughout the day". although, i wonder if squats would respond the same way? hmmm... but i don't want to have to move my squat stands, bar, and weights up and down the stairs constantly. anyways, i think the implication is that i should switch the position of the chest-press-thingee and the overhead press in my workout and then drop back the weight on the stronger lifts. the hope would be to tread water with those and transfer the "oomph" to the weaker lifts in hopes of bringing them into line and trusting that moving everything together is a better plan for injury avoidance and general strength anyway. now, the question becomes how far i can dial back deadlifts and press without feeling like an idiot. but humility is good since i have no reason for boasting. thus, maybe press at 55lbs warmup and 65lbs working; deadlifts at 135/165lbs for each weight loading.
     
  2. Bare Lee

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    Considering your height and weight, that's a pretty good deadlift, I would say. It fits within the profile too, that says ectomorphs or longer limbed folks should be better at deadlifts, while stout, shorter limb folks should be better at squats. Like Christian Thibaudeau says, the ratios are guidelines but other factors like body type and training history have to be taken into account.
    I get it, it's pretty clear to me.

    Are you converting your spreadsheet to either a PDF file or a JPEG file?

    You might want to try bodyweight or goblet squats if you want to grease the groove throughout the day, or add greater volume to the squat sets in your actual workouts, as I'm doing for both the squat and the overhead press. Seems to be working.

    Based on my limited experience in this cycle, I've found it's hard to dial back beyond a certain resistance level. You might want to bring the deadlifts down to where you still feel you're getting some decent resistance. That's what I found during my rehab. Once I got back over 200, although the load was still relatively light for me, it was enough to feel like I was training the movement and stressing the muscles enough to have worked them out.

    P.S., your chest press is probably stronger because your concentric phase begins without the benefit of the stretch reflex used in conventional bench presses, right?

    Overall, looks like you're making solid progress, congrats! It's great having you participate in the cycle/ratio obsessiveness.
     
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  3. Abide

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    Barefooters
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    Sorry about my log, I have been having issues updating inside my post? Anyway knocked out my fastest run of the year today. It's nice to see some unexpected benefits of consistent running.

    On another note next week and cycle I am considering dropping back to a split routine to mix things up a little. The full body thing is getting a little dull, think this might spice it up a bit.

    I need to catch up on your logs and see how you two are progressing.

    I read that ratio article. And I am still hesitant to let one lift dictate how the others should progress? I kind of understand the logic behind it but it doesn't seem to adjust for natural differences? It is fun to plug the numbers.

    BA are you mixing grips or using the overhand grip? Once I get past my warmup sets I usually mix grips. It really adds some grip strength for the deadlift. In fact I feel like it changes the entire lift.
     
  4. Bare Lee

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    Yah, consistent running . . . number one goal for the next cycle, and with temps warming up, and stubbed toe just about 100%, no excuses.

    Funny, I was thinking about a split routine too, just for variety. But I'll hold off at least another cycle so that I can give my current plan a chance. Eventually though, I could do full body splits using my old 1/3/5 rep-count protocol, doing squats and one upper body push and pull one day, and deadlifts and the other upper body push and pull the other, or even a three-day split with just two lifts per day plus assistance. But I think I'm getting good results with the higher frequency approach right now, so no need for variety just for variety sake, unless doing the same damn lifts every workout is getting dull and demotivating, as it is for you. The mental aspect is just as important as the physical, right? Once a routine gets boring, inconsistency and slower or stalled progress can't be far behind.

    I think the ratio thing has to be a guideline, not a strict rule, and Thibaudeau is pretty good about making this point. The ratios are good to think with, or think through, but they don't have to be followed. Just thinking about it will probably get one to sense the relative balance and interaction between one's lifts. I do think it's important to have good relative balance, no matter how it's attained or what program is followed. The dirty little secret of strength training, it seems to me, is that there's carryover for almost everything. Squats probably help the overhead press even, insofar as they strengthen the 'core' and improve shoulder mobility and scapular retraction. Certainly, all three main pulls interact with each other, and form a foundation for the two main presses, which definitely interact as well. And I'm counting on an improved deep squat to bulletproof my deadlift a bit.

    I always use pronated grip on the deadlifts. My grip strength has more or less caught up to my deadlift capability. Loaded carries and/or pullups using a rolled-up towel, or just hanging from a towel, are a great way to develop grip-strength.

    Although I intend to lift today and run/walk tomorrow, I think I'll start the next cycle thread with my opening statement in a bit while my thoughts on ratios, etc., are still fresh.
     
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  5. Abide

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    Barefooters
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    Yeah I think maybe rotating between three types of plans might help keep things fresh but also give some consistent lifting? I think something with the ratios and weaknesses it might help to add in a little variety to reps and lifts. Now I need to think of one? Maybe just using a generic west side plan might work?

    You know I usually can lift the same pronated as mixed but I feel much more confident with mixed that's why I use it. Sometimes I need to focus all my mental energy to just lifting and the slight slippage in pronated grip can make me drop it?
     
  6. Bare Lee

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    Yah, I envision something similar in the future, possibly alternating approaches on a weekly basis even. Right now, however, I'm going to do whatever seems to get me to my year-end goals best, unless boredom creeps in as it has for you. A full-body, high-frequency, undulating rep-count approach feels pretty good right now.

    It's been a while since my deadlifts were heavy enough to worry about chalk and grip strength. I've never tried the mixed grip. I'm a little adverse to learning new stuff unless it seems needed. And I've had to learn a lot of new stuff over the last year, so I'm kind of hoping to coast for a while now, technique-wise. Same with all the deadlift variations. Could be cool to try them in the future. I might also get around to front squats at some point. For the moment, I'm trying to figure out what combo of row variations is best. I'm pretty sure I want to mix them up, but exactly how, I can't decide.

    How fast did you run by the way?

    I thought about asking Thibaudeau what he thought a good percentage would be for the deep squats, but every time I tried to log in and write a comment, I got returned to the main article. I ended up guessing 87.5% of a half/parallel squat for the full squat. Does that seem about right?

    Funny, I tried listening to a Metallica station on Samsung's Milk app. I quickly switched to a 50 Cent station. I guess I prefer black boosting to white rage -- the beats are better.
     
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  7. BroadArrow

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    Barefooters
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    well, isn't training supposed to be "hard" in some sense? i think we should paint our workout areas pink according to the urban legend that some "study" said that people are weaker in pink rooms. then when you go out into the real world, you'll suddenly gain 5% or something. :)

    also, allow me to let my zealot rant out: why does everyone take "show off" pictures of themselves in shoes? first of all, don't fancy bodybuilding competitions usually pose barefoot or in 8-inch spike heels as opposed to clunky cross-trainer foam blocks? second, i guess if you wear shoes all the time, you don't think it looks stupid. but to me it looks stupid when you have women showing off the results of their training by doing posed/perfect-contrast-lighting pull-ups wearing shoes (sorry, no example link). since when do you need shoes to do pullups? or the calves on the "article of the day" today (https://www.t-nation.com/training/cure-for-chicken-calves) disappearing into walls of fabric. i am experiencing a serious failure of imagination as to the mechanical or aesthetic advantages of shoes in that context.
     
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  8. Bare Lee

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    Haha, I like that idea. Wish I would've thought of it. "Hey babe, do you mind if I paint the garage pink?" "No honey, that's sounds like a great idea, go right ahead! . . . Wait a minute, are you latent?"

    We can thank Abide for dragging us into the world of the meathead sites. Butt seriously, it's been an education, and ethnographically, it's a fascinating culture. I especially like the forums where everyone gets to throw insults without any risk of a fistfight breaking out.

    It's taken a while to weed through all the macho and programming bs, but sometime last year I noticed that the trainers that made the most sense to me were all saying the same thing: do the basic lifts. Frick, it works! That being said, I'm still looking for a way to work in a handful of assistance exercises without letting them distract me from the task at hand. Maybe I could tag on three on Mon, three on Wednesday, and then do some plyo/heavy bag work on Friday . . . .

    Looking at the absurdly shod is like watching the absurdly obese or inflexible at the mall or State Fair. You want to reach out and give them the barefoot/naturalistic gospel.
     
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  9. Bare Lee

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    This writer posted a comment on Thibaudeau's article on ratios, linking to a similar set of calculations he did 8 years before:
    http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_on...building_article/how_much_can_you_lift_wimp_1
    Interestingly, on the second page of this article's comments (http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_on..._much_can_you_lift_wimp_1?id=1823843&pageNo=1), the author Brad, in the 5:27pm comment, suggests that the pullup-to-everything-else ratio will decrease as the individual becomes more trained in the other lifts. So some untrained individuals will be able to do pullups but half or less their BW on the Bench, but eventually, if they keep training, the bench will surpass the pullup. He also goes on to say that "Chin-up/pull-ups and deadlifts are the two that can vary the most due to training specificity. Gymnasts (at any age) completely alter this."

    That seems about right.
     
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  10. Sid

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    I would support a minimalist thread. I saw the video below, and a lot of it rings true for me.

    When running or swimming, I don't care about my times or distance. I'm just exercising to promote good health. I'm not motivated by PRs (past records), medals, or swag. Despite this minimalist approach, I'm now running 5 miles 5-6x weekly, and I feel satisfied with this.

    Secret To Massive Pecs - Scooby sets bench press record!
     
  11. Abide

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    Not particularly fast, but about 7 minutes faster than my normal 18k run. I really felt it the next day while limping around in the morning. So slow and infrequent seem to be the way for me to keep away from my old man gimps.

    I'm trying to do the same with row variations, not sure how to get in a heavy horizontal row? Maybe I'll do pendlay rows now that I am only doing one lower workout a week? I did try out my landmine with some Russian twists but figured out I need to do some research into how they should be done. I could buy one of those close grip handles to use on it and load that up with some decent weight.

    I reread the texas method on tnation, its a pretty good article. And then gave stronglifts another read. Then I ended up on this article and the DJ post I put up on the other page.
    http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/38-articles/60-westside-for-skinny-bastards-part1.html

    I kind of mimicked that defrancos article mainly because of the argument Now, before all of the hardcore Westside "disciples" start grumbling, remember that this program is not intended for advanced powerlifters. It's intended for athletes and regular people looking to pack on some muscle mass without being "all-show, no-go." I really think sets of 5 may be past the marginal end of the strength spectrum for me. My thighs have grown significantly this last cycle which is what I have suspected but it's nice to really test it out.[/quote]
     
  12. Bare Lee

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    Thanks, I just realized that having the word "singles" or "1RM" might be putting some people off from participating, so I changed the thread titles to "Minimalist Strength Training." I guess the idea is simply that people are using fairly simple routines to develop strength, like one of the popular programs -- 5/3/1, Starting Strength, the Texas Method, an Upper/Lower split, or one of our bastardizations of them.

    In contrast, the guy in that video seems to be more of an aesthetic/bodybuilding lifter, no?

    Personally, I love adding weight to the bar and achieving a new PR. I just got in (if memory serves) a new 3RM PR on the Overhead Press, and it feels great! Very motivating for me.
     
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  13. Bare Lee

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    [/quote]
    Good job on getting faster!

    I'm really hoping to get the running up and running again this cycle. I miss it real bad. After wavering, I think I'm committing to a 3x per week running schedule for this cycle, in order to have a full 48 hours to recover. It's always worked in the past. Then, once I'm in decent running condition, maybe work in the one-mile run-commutes on my non-running days, the lifting days. The main thing is to get this left big toe 100% before anything else can happen.

    For this cycle, I think I'm opting for the Cable Row, just because it's so easy to set up, and it's relatively easy to main strict form. I use the same weight as my pulldowns, and now that I got smart and added a little chain length in order to start from the correct position, the Cable Row felt a lot better on Friday's workout. I need to do my 1-DB Rows though, so I'm developing a program for Cycle II that may include Kroc Rows as assistance. More in a bit.

    I dunno, 60-Westside is a lot of variety. I really like how we're keeping it simple these days. More of a frequency approach. That said, I am intending to work in more assistance this cycle. I think there is some benefit there, as long as it's done the right way and doesn't detract from time or recovery devoted to the main lifts.
     
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  14. Abide

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    Yeah agreed the variety is too much, one of the things I don't like about west side actually. Chains, bands, random equipment just gets to be too much. I am mainly stealing the weekly layout of the program, and just simplify it to fit my schedule better. I think maybe rotating through some general plans like what I will do this week, with a full body low rep approach and maybe some ladders will give enough diversity that I can dumb down the lifts as much as possible.

    I honestly don't see how much different a close grip bench press is than from dips, so what's the point in doing both?

    I am going to look to see if my squat rack has a cable attachment? edit: too expensive and big. I just bought a close grip handle to use on my landmine should be about the same stimulus but significantly cheaper.
     
  15. Bare Lee

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    For cables, I would think you could rig up two or three pulleys and then load a vertical pipe with a flange on the bottom. The problem with this kind of set-up is that the load tends to swing, so make sure the pulleys have some space between them.

    For the Russian Twists, I just hold onto the bar. You can either do a smaller, tighter arc with more load, or a higher, wider arc with less load.
     
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  16. Sid

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    Yes, it would appear so. A lot of his videos do focus on proper form and safety, and that's what I find to be useful. I wonder if bodybuilders and strength-focused lifters have different rates of injury?
     

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