Concurrent Strength & Endurance Training 2016: Cycle I

Yeah that was my problem too and to some extent I am running into that issue again with my split as well. It seems like intensity can be had with high weights and lower volume and frequency as much as lower weight and higher volume. The one heavy and one light a week has been working ok. I think your idea is good, maybe only do one row type a day though. I would suggest against DL twice a week though. I also always intermix my pushes and pulls that helps save a little time.

I'll think about it a little more but doing it 3+ days a week should be doable. And if it gets tough you can always drop weight and work reps more on Friday and Sat/Sun. Maybe focus mostly on getting two consistent workouts in a week at the minimum too, build up that feeling of consistency.

Thanks for the comments about the squat, the tight back position seems to be the most important thing for me on the squats as you mention. Interesting.
Yah, the second, optional DL would most probably be a RDL done at Squat weight. The Bench too, could be a variation, like DB BP, on the second workout. The idea would be mostly to practice the movement so I don't get too creaky by the time Wednesday's workout rolls around. My Bench especially needs a certain amount of frequency or the shoulder joints feel tight and uncooperative.

I think the fourth workout should be doable, since it's only really taking time away from aerobic stuff, and, unlike you, my aerobic options right now aren't too exciting anyway. I would think two bike rides and one rowing session would be enough, especially if I'm able to get in one or two laps of hill running after Wednesday's workout. Saturday could also involve some conditioning stuff like box jumps if the kids are OK with it. They'd probably have fun joining in.

Cool you're thinking along similar lines regarding the squat. Yesterday it was all I could do not to cheat the form a bit coming up from 298.5-pound single, as I was low energy, but maintaining that posture throughout the movement does seem to be key.
 
Understood about benching more frequently. I do think frequency might be necessary to move forward with the bench at a certain point, maybe even the press too. There is probably a money spot for all the 6 lifts regarding frequency, weight and volume. And likely none of them are the same. I think the upper body pulls, might be on one end of the spectrum and deadlifts on the other but the pushes and squats aren't quite as clear to me.

Its funny how much my mindset has changed already about minimalizing and simplifying workouts I kind of forgot about lifting more than 3 times a week which is completely doable and probably recommended by most. I guess that's how much down the concurrent path I have come to basically whittle out any excess? I still would like to do some hill sprints, or even some hill repeats? I have some stairs on my weekly run maybe I should try to ad 10 minutes and do some repeats there.

I put together my pull down unit this morning. Still thinking about the best way to add it in? Maybe as a warmup for pull ups and full loads for seated rows? I think I am going to lift Friday just so I can test it out.
 
Understood about benching more frequently. I do think frequency might be necessary to move forward with the bench at a certain point, maybe even the press too. There is probably a money spot for all the 6 lifts regarding frequency, weight and volume. And likely none of them are the same. I think the upper body pulls, might be on one end of the spectrum and deadlifts on the other but the pushes and squats aren't quite as clear to me.

Its funny how much my mindset has changed already about minimalizing and simplifying workouts I kind of forgot about lifting more than 3 times a week which is completely doable and probably recommended by most. I guess that's how much down the concurrent path I have come to basically whittle out any excess? I still would like to do some hill sprints, or even some hill repeats? I have some stairs on my weekly run maybe I should try to ad 10 minutes and do some repeats there.

I put together my pull down unit this morning. Still thinking about the best way to add it in? Maybe as a warmup for pull ups and full loads for seated rows? I think I am going to lift Friday just so I can test it out.
Yah, that spectrum seems about right to me. Upper body pulls can, and perhaps should, be done pretty much every workout, which is what I'm thinking of trying. Plus, they don't add much time. I can do three sets of pulldowns or rows in about five to seven minutes, whereas squats and deadlifts can take fifteen or twenty, once you factor in warm-up sets.

I think Bench and Deadlift are sort of the same for me. Just once a week done heavy or intensively might be enough, then a lighter workout just to maintain the movement and keep the joints lubed. I'm still convinced of my idea that squats can drive 80% of deadlift progress, and overhead presses can do the same for the bench press. So two hard workouts per week on the squats and presses should do the trick.

I've never really tried a 4x per week routine, at least not for any extended period of time. I've always settled on that EOD, 3x per week alternation with aerobic exercise. But if you look at most programs, almost none of them do six lifts every workout intensively. I'm mostly going on intuition, but I think a little extra time spent on fewer lifts might give me more benefit at this point, although I like how my six-lift, higher frequency routine allows for easy recovery. We'll see. With the 2/3/5/7+ protocol, although I haven't really given it a fair shot, it's just a little daunting to do all four main lifts at that level of intensity. I think two per workout then secondary or assistance stuff that doesn't take as much time, energy, or motivation could work well for me. And with just two intense lifts, I could add a set of doubles or triples to really stroke the muscle recruitment genie, then let it work its magic with five- and 7-rep sets for a good pump. Or do the double load once as a single, once as a double, then two sets of triples, one set of five, and one set of seven plus.

So it's kind of your minimalist idea, but since I'm not really expending much time or energy on the aerobic front, it can be expanded a bit, without really adding anything in that's superfluous. The more I become familiar with the meathead literature, the more I side with the big and basic school of thought, i.e, the Rippetoes and Wendlers, or going back further, the Parks and Starrs. Plus, I think a lot of those bodybuilder routines are predicated on juicing. Then there's the Men's Health/Bret Contreras school where you need to worry about getting in every possible variation known to man. "Oh shit, I forgot to do my band pull-aparts!"

Also, with a simple Workout A & B scheme, I can easily allow for interruptions. Workout A is the most important, so get that in first. Workout B is expendable in a really busy week or when I'm sick, but if I just get in those two workouts, A & B, I'm probably at least at maintenance level. Then repeating each workout one more time in the week is frosting on the cake, but could really spur greater progress.

With the hill repeats (I hesitate to call them sprints since I'll be running at a 10-11mm pace) I'm thinking of putting them at the end of a workout, on the way to picking up the kids, since, initially at least, I'll only do one or two 'laps', to see how the knees handle it. But it could be a good way to scratch the running itch once in a while. Plus I think the running motion is an important one to practice. Nothing else really mimics it.

Pulldowns are also good for those grips that are hard to do as pullups, like a close-grip pulldown with one of those triangle attachments. But yeah, cable rows are probably the best use, because they work the back in a way that other rows don't.

Going to see a doctor in an hour about this persistent sore throat . . . enough is enough.
 
Hey Lee I was hoping you could help me with a loading question for the cable pull extension I added the cable routing is like the picture below. Does that mean the actual load is the weight I am lifting? I know you researched this a bit in the past, and I am being too lazy to dig into the physics of pulleys. If it is its odd how easy 80kgs is on the horizontal row compared to doing a barbell style row. I also was hoping to raise up the bottom pulley height a bit so I could get more of a horizontal pull than a sort of decline pull.
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Hey Lee I was hoping you could help me with a loading question for the cable pull extension I added the cable routing is like the picture below. Does that mean the actual load is the weight I am lifting? I know you researched this a bit in the past, and I am being too lazy to dig into the physics of pulleys. If it is its odd how easy 80kgs is on the horizontal row compared to doing a barbell style row. I also was hoping to raise up the bottom pulley height a bit so I could get more of a horizontal pull than a sort of decline pull.
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Yah, basically, you're only pulling half the weight, because the distance you pull versus the distance the load moves is twice as much, right? Of course friction enters into the equation too, but for practical purposes, expect to have to load twice as much to get the same effect as a barbell row.
 
So the pull down is equal to the weight and the horizontal row is 1/2 weight, that makes sense thanks for the clarification. Yeah friction and the weight of the plate holder might add 5kgs but that really is negligible for my purposes.

Now I think I need to buy some more plates, the more you have the more you need...
 
Wednesday, 16.01.20
AM
Saw doctor, he prescribed amoxicillin. I probably have some low-level bacterial infection in my throat and ear canal, maybe glands as well. I'll wait until my chronic tiredness passes before I work out again..

That sucks hope the antibiotics help a bit. This winter has been a rough one for illnesses for us too. I still have a minor head cold and cough that started around Christmas time.
 
So the pull down is equal to the weight and the horizontal row is 1/2 weight, that makes sense thanks for the clarification. Yeah friction and the weight of the plate holder might add 5kgs but that really is negligible for my purposes.

Now I think I need to buy some more plates, the more you have the more you need...
I think the pulldowns should be half too. Try it out. Does 200, your body weight, feel really light in comparison to the pullup? I ended up removing the center pulleys.

I was able to use my standard 1" plates for the pulldown, and then I tack on the Olympic 2" fractional plates for microloading. One way or the other, it's nice having dedicated plates on the pulldown so you save some time.

That sucks hope the antibiotics help a bit. This winter has been a rough one for illnesses for us too. I still have a minor head cold and cough that started around Christmas time.
Wow, that's a long time. Are you sleeping enough or under stress? It's rare for a viral infection to last more than a week or so. It can develop into a viral syndrome if you're not careful. I had that hacking cough this summer, but I was already weak from shingles so I put it down to that. I wonder if I'm still a bit weak and that explains this bacterial infection. One thing, I'm going to be more vigilante about flossing and gargling with mouthwash. I think that can really help cut down on the crud.

I'm already feeling better I think, after a day's course of amoxicillin, and I didn't get a full night's rest either, more like 6-7 hours, which is normal for me, but I could probably use an extra 2-3 while I'm fighting this bug. Never had a fever so it's not that big a deal. Hopefully I can lift tomorrow at normal energy levels. I really need it. Today I'll go on a leisurely bike ride.

Thinking of adopting your early lifting morning schedule, but that might necessitate using the university gym so I don't wake people up.
 
Hey Lee I was hoping you could help me with a loading question for the cable pull extension I added the cable routing is like the picture below. Does that mean the actual load is the weight I am lifting? I know you researched this a bit in the past, and I am being too lazy to dig into the physics of pulleys. If it is its odd how easy 80kgs is on the horizontal row compared to doing a barbell style row. I also was hoping to raise up the bottom pulley height a bit so I could get more of a horizontal pull than a sort of decline pull.
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so, if the red cable is fixed while you pull on the green cable, the weight will move just as far as the handle (and that double pulley in the middle will stay put) and hence the force at the handle will be whatever weight you have hanging in the black box.

if the green cable is fixed while you pull on the RED cable, the double pulley will drop half as far as you pull the handle. but... the green is folded over, so it will take twice that distance to make it (the distance the double pulley drops) up, and hence the weight should rise the same distance as the handle got pulled.

so, both the red and the green should give you the same load as what you put in the black box (plus the friction in the pulleys and the distortion of the cable that ultimately heats up the room...)

i think....

the easy way is to just get out a ruler and pull the handle one foot or whatever and then see how far the weight moves up. or load it up with a small amount of weight and hang a similar amount of weight on the other end and see what happens.

in any case, the answer will make all of us look dumb and like we didn't pay attention in 5th grade math class... :)
 
Yeah having a dedicated weight set would be great, I might end up getting some more 10kg and 20kgs bumpers and then use my steel weight solely for the pull down. For some stupid reason I prefer lifting with bumpers anyway, so might be a better use of money. I just couldn't stomach dropping twice the price of the pull down at the time and include weight before I knew I was going to use it.

Well the middle pulley doesn't move when I use the pulldown so the distance I pull the bar should be the same as the weights move. The horizontal pull cable is mounted to the rack so the middle pulley moves, then half the distance of the weight, just from thinking about it. I could be wrong though.

I actually think its been a couple different viruses, but who knows. I have been sleeping enough, I shoot for 8 hours but usually only end up with 7, which is good I think. On the weekend its about the same as I have a hard time sleeping more. I'll try out the same with mouthwash and floss. I was also going to start using apple cider vinegar more often too. That helps stabilizing blood pressure for me.

I'm interested to hear if you do make the transition, you changing jobs? Its a catch 22 for sure, such a good feeling to get your workouts done first thing when your energy levels are refreshed, but initially getting going is tough. You mentioned wearing sleeves and warmers before and I think I might take that advice start to wear more clothes to warm up faster. If you have to bike or walk to a gym though that would be a great warm up in itself.
 
so, if the red cable is fixed while you pull on the green cable, the weight will move just as far as the handle (and that double pulley in the middle will stay put) and hence the force at the handle will be whatever weight you have hanging in the black box.

if the green cable is fixed while you pull on the RED cable, the double pulley will drop half as far as you pull the handle. but... the green is folded over, so it will take twice that distance to make it (the distance the double pulley drops) up, and hence the weight should rise the same distance as the handle got pulled.

so, both the red and the green should give you the same load as what you put in the black box (plus the friction in the pulleys and the distortion of the cable that ultimately heats up the room...)

i think....

the easy way is to just get out a ruler and pull the handle one foot or whatever and then see how far the weight moves up. or load it up with a small amount of weight and hang a similar amount of weight on the other end and see what happens.

in any case, the answer will make all of us look dumb and like we didn't pay attention in 5th grade math class... :)

Dammit I think you are right... the green and the red are doubled so the total distance is the same.

Well I'm gonna listen to you instead of Lee since your explanation makes me feel like a bigger bad ass at horizontal rows.

(I'll only report back if I get positive confirmation with my tape measure this weekend)
 
Dammit I think you are right... the green and the red are doubled so the total distance is the same.

Well I'm gonna listen to you instead of Lee since your explanation makes me feel like a bigger bad ass at horizontal rows.

(I'll only report back if I get positive confirmation with my tape measure this weekend)
From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulley
"Consider the set of pulleys that form the moving block and the parts of the rope that support this block. If there are p of these parts of the rope supporting the load W, then a force balance on the moving block shows that the tension in each of the parts of the rope must be W/p. This means the input force on the rope is T=W/p. Thus, the block and tackle reduces the input force by the factor p.

  • A gun tackle has a single pulley in both the fixed and moving blocks with two rope parts supporting the load W.

  • Separation of the pulleys in the gun tackle show the force balance that results in a rope tension of W/2."
Or: http://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/engines-equipment/pulley.htm

Yah, lifting first thing would suck, but like you say, it would be great to get it out of the way and avoid interruptions later. I usually like to have two meals in me before lifting though. For warm-ups, I think squat warm-up sets with stretching in between is usually enough. If not, I could jump around a bit or something, or wear extra layers like you suggest. I used to run first thing, so it would hopefully just be a matter of adapting, and, if I end up doing lighter loads, so be it. I'm already close to my initial goals, so it doesn't really mater if it takes me six months or a year to get the squat up another 50 pounds or so. After that, it's just frosting on the cake anyway. Like you, I'm more concerned about conditioning and weight loss now.

I don't like using the university gym. I really like working out alone without distractions or being observed. And I don't want a bunch of young dudes supportively screaming at me to bust out another rep, although having someone like you as a lifting partner would be great. Anyway, first thing in the morning there might not be too many people around. Later afternoon, no way I'm going.
 
I did the measurement and BA was right, they both are 1:1. That dual middle pulley makes it complicated as BA states, the top half supports half the weight of the stack but the bottom pulley supports the other half, but the total cable movement between the two is the same so the weight on the low pull is the same as the weight of the stack.
 
I did the measurement and BA was right, they both are 1:1. That dual middle pulley makes it complicated as BA states, the top half supports half the weight of the stack but the bottom pulley supports the other half, but the total cable movement between the two is the same so the weight on the low pull is the same as the weight of the stack.
Funny, I thought you had the illustration wrong. On the two cable systems I've seen--the one I inherited and the Stamina power rack I bought in 2014--the load is moved by a movable pulley as in the illustrations I posted. It's cool that your system is 1:1, probably a higher quality cable system intended for serious lifters. Both my Stamina power rack and the other one are cheapies intended for the fitness novice, for whom a 100-pound pulldown or cable row might be a maximum. My Stamina even had Smith-style sleeves for the J-hooks that I had to remove. The idea was to fix the barbell in the sleeves with a kind of clamp, probably as a safety mechanism but also in the absence of technique. A pic of of your set-up would be appreciated.

Feeling better, will probably lift today. Not sure if I should deload a week or two or hope that I'm able to pick up where I left off, but it's been several weeks now of sporadic lifting.
 
One does not calculate mechanical advantage by measuring the length of rope. It is determined by the number of supporting ropes.

Per the diagram, when using the top cable, the center pulley is fixed, and is only redirecting force.

When using the low cable, the center pulley is mobile and the weight is supported by 2 ropes, thus the force is magnified by 2.

If the diagram does not accurately reflect your setup, that's a different story. :D

More discussion here.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=140287763
 
One does not calculate mechanical advantage by measuring the length of rope. It is determined by the number of supporting ropes.

Per the diagram, when using the top cable, the center pulley is fixed, and is only redirecting force.

When using the low cable, the center pulley is mobile and the weight is supported by 2 ropes, thus the force is magnified by 2.

If the diagram does not accurately reflect your setup, that's a different story. :D

More discussion here.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=140287763
I think Sid is right if the illustration is an accurate reflection of Abide's set-up. The (number of) length(s) of the rope will be a function of the number of pulleys, however, as long as the load is moving with the pulleys, as in the links I posted. In order to move half the weight, the length of the rope must be twice as long, it's intrinsic to the mechanic advantage, which is the division of the force, measurable by the number of rope lengths involved. So two rope lengths = W/2; three rope lengths = W/3, and so on.
 
Yeah maybe the picture is bad, from your link here is the setup and explanation. But the center pulley is actually supported by 4 ropes (two up and two down) as the end of the pull down is basically a fixed attachment. (Not sure how I feel about that little rubber ball at the end holding 100kgs? edit err 50kgs as we have been discussing....)

From your link:
Here is the resulting diagram when we combine the top and bottom pulleys together to form that double pulley:
Note that the mechanical advantage (and disadvantage too) occurs at the connection between the double pulleys.
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Funny how we are arguing about pulley's instead of which is better barefoot or minimalist running.

personally, i feel bareheaded is the appropriate way to lift, but a minimalist covering, at least for the forehead, is appropriate for running to ease the protection from sun glare or icy winds. of course real men <insert something ridiculous here>.

in other news, my weight machine uses a double-pulley system like yours as well as a goofy multi-pulley-zigzag-yoke-y thing for chest press. i guess it is about the engineers finding ways to get a single weight stack to move for four different end user movement points. in my case, the pull down from the top, out from the middle, out/up from the bottom (doubling with the leg extension gizmo), and then the sideways tensioning thing for the "bench" press yoke. they all work out to be 1:1 except for the yoke which is not and additionally depends on what angle you have it clicked to since that makes a minor change in the length of the lever arm.

annotated_machine.png

and yes, they all rely on those rubber balls to keep the cables from slipping through.

in any case, the numbers don't really matter: it is a matter of what feels difficult and then being able to keep track of whether you are slowly moving toward more difficult or less difficult.

happy pulling, rotating, or whatever it is you intend to do with the cables!
 
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