barefoot running and minimalist shoes

[Jen]

Hi all you barefoot lovers,



Don't know about you but it seems there are lots more people out there interested in the topic these days. It's been an interest of mine, and passion, to explore the pros and cons of the barefeet.

I came across this site which offers much research done on the subject. Has anyone heard of this doctor or exchanged any emails. Lieberman has been in the news about Vibram, and it seems to have stired quite a controversy about ethics ! Take a read and let me know what you think?

http://www.stevenrobbinsmd.com

 

[nature runner]

I actually just put up a link

I actually just put up a link about him on the runningbarefootisbad topic..

 

[Matt]

Jen -- I wonder if he is any

Jen -- I wonder if he is any relation to Charlie "Doc" Robbins, who was an accomplished barefoot runner in the mid part of the 20th century.

I'm pretty skeptical that there will ever be much in the way of research that proves that barefoot running is the best way to run. Scientific research has to be funded, and the ones doing the funding are usually the people with a product to sell. I don't know of any companies in the business of selling feet.

 

[DavidP]

As far as I know, the only

As far as I know, the only controversy about Dr Liebermann’s study that it was partially funded by Vibram. He is a highly regarded, tenured, Harvard evolutionary biologist and his study was published in one of the most prestigious peer reviewed scientific journals, Nature. His study on impact forces between shod and unshod runners was straightforward and did not draw conclusions on running form, or shoes vs barefoot (http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/).

There are few studies in the medical or sports science fields that are not at least partially funded by manufacturers. There are pretty stringent guidelines to help ensure fairness, but that does not mean a study cannot be designed to favor an outcome. That is where peer review plays a big role in policing studies before they are published. Without private investment in scientific research there would be far less innovation in the world. Vibram deserves tons of Kudos for investing in the research. The problem with running shoe manufacturers is that they have NOT been actively funding research on shoes, injuries, etc. for the past 40 years.

I have read several of the studies on Dr Robbins website and he makes some excellent points, but I find his arguments against any shoes to be extreme. To argue that minimalist shoes in general "are no better than the hazardous shoes their manufacturers suggest they super cede" really makes no sense. I'm wearing a pair of 6mm huaraches as I write this. I've run 4 miles on trails and gravel this week very comfortably in these. Are they no better than the Brooks Beast running "boots" recommended to me after a "gait analysis" in which I could not run a half mile in before my knees started screaming? I don't think so.

I need shoes for work, for running on sharp gravel or other unpleasant surfaces, social situations which demand shoes, etc. The more research that goes into generates data which supports true minimalist shoes will lead to more shoe options and benefit basically everyone who wears shoes.

David

 

[Barefoot TJ]

Great post, David.

Great post, David.

 

[Shacky]

I will always side with the

I will always side with the group that says bf is better then shoes, even if the shoes happen to be "barefoot shoes".

The more mileage I put in BF, the less I started liking my VFFs, hence the switch to Luna sandals. If I were able to run 20+ miles through the San Diego trails barefoot, my Lunas would be collecting dust next to my VFFs as well.

I saw this on a blog this morning and was a bit puzzled so if someone has a pair of Vivo Barefoot shoes (I really hate this term!), please explain:

Why Run Barefoot?
With 200,000 nerve endings, 33 major muscles, 28 bones, 19 ligaments; the human foot is a biomechanical masterpiece and perfect for running.


I'm sure everyone has seen similar statements to this. They then list this as a benefit to the VivoBareFoot shoe:

• Stimulation – by increasing stimulation to all 200,000
nerve endings in your feet, it enhances sensory
perception and improves circulation.



How exactly does putting a shoe on your foot help the 200k nerve endings do their intended job?

 

[Longboard]

Most people in civilized

Most people in civilized societies refuse to accept that a barefoot option exists.

The advertiser of the "barefoot" shoe points out how great the bare foot is, and then tries to sell you on their invention that will make you closer to being barefoot than your present shoe allows.

When I mentioned to a podiatrist that my hallux limitis pain was practically non-existant when barefoot, he said that I would still need surgery since going barefoot was not an option.

Hmmmm, surgery or go barefoot, wonder which method of pain reduction I chose......

 

[stomper]

 Interesting site.  I had

Interesting site. I had read several of this guy's papers before.

It seems like the web site has two major points that I can agree with, or at least sympathize with.

First, I am just projecting here, but it seems the guy feels miffed because he was out there researching barefoot vs. shod before it got fashionable and started appearing in the NY times.. That happens a lot in science and in writing... the early voices on a subject aren't the same ones who later seem to get all the credit and the glory.

Second, he is dismayed by the gleeful oxymoron that few people seem to question: "barefoot shoes." Going barefoot is not the same as wearing shoes, as we all know here! But the media and marketing environment certainly says that it is... Check out this google search on images about "barefoot running". About half of the pictures are of shoes. Go figure...

Anyway it's not so much what he's saying there that stands out as the betrayed tone. Kinda feel sorry for the guy. It's unfortunate he he's gotten fixated on Lieberman, but maybe a few bitter old men like him screaming "SHOES AREN'T BAREFOOT!" will keep Nike from marketing the Free 65.0's with the 20-meter thick sole as a "barefoot training device."

Maybe we should all just buy him a bottle of scotch, with a note that says "Thanks for all your work, dude... A votre sante!"

 

[Matt]

stomper wrote:...Second, he

...Second, he is dismayed by the gleeful oxymoron that few people seem to question: "barefoot shoes." Going barefoot is not the same as wearing shoes, as we all know here! But the media and marketing environment certainly says that it is... Check out this google search on images about "barefoot running". About half of the pictures are of shoes. Go figure..."

I'm one of those people who take issue with the term "barefoot shoes" as well. A prominent "barefoot shoe" site recently had a huge comparison of all the different "barefoot shoes" on the market. But they failed to compare running in those shoes to actually running barefoot. Running in shoes is fine, but don't call yourself barefoot if you are running in shoes.

 

[Blind Boy]

His issues with minimalist

His issues with minimalist shoes seem to come from this paper mostly, or at least it's the first one that deals with the issue: https://2629773147617537829-a-stevenrobbinsmd-com-s-sites.googlegroups.com/a/stevenrobbinsmd.com/stevenrobbinsmd/1991-1.pdf?attachauth=ANoY7cocFLI8jNq_0seiLKAsyg8buzmq0C5V0gbiUfsIV_BevkBNMsdxpQEtXgdT6TGDoCWvCBjY3Q0fx3azmM5OXAObB7mG039XoKMwVQhdGdlSzpGxg52e-0hI2V8VAvnLeIPDqCQUQaiwR3eGnwvCh3i9yY9Sb222lAJ7iwvKK06Zn5ld58N9h0gJKtn5yAgeV4817LpzT2ccN2H-CmlZxdYlF6FbLA%3D%3D&attredirects=0

A real interesting read, I must say. The way I understand it your foot needs a little bit of discomfort for the impact reduction reflexes to kick in, specifically horizontal loads. To me this made a lot of sense and it fits with what I've experienced the past few weeks as I've tried to run in shoes again. As long as there's a smooth sole underfoot you won't do anything to reduce the horizantal loads and do way less to reduce the vertical ones as well according to the study. All I know is I've had some discomfort around the knees both during and after my evo runs and I've never had that while barefoot. This has made me think about making custom insoles for my shoes, an idea not entirely unlike the gravel marching video by Todd Ragsdale.

 

[Jen]

Thank you all guys (and gals)

Thank you all guys (and gals) for the much appreciated comments and feedback. The research presented through Dr.Robbins' site was founded way back indeed, prior to Lieberman and his team, if you look at the relative news publications.

Anyhow, it's a shame that the mega corporations are the ones getting recognition for what has been around for ages, the barefeet and barefoot running. I just went around the block and back home without a scratch on any of my heals now that's modern medicine

Will enjoy my cup of tea fellows with no shoes on. The only way to keep grounded while moving along into this new era of artificial footwear.

I hope nobody takes offense, but I cannot stand the Vibram Shoe or anything of it's kind. Artificially barefoot just does not do it for me ! Keep the enjoyment active.

Regards,

Jen

 

[Danjo]

20 meter thick sole on the

20 meter thick sole on the nike free, eh Stomper? I didn't know they were making minimal stilts now. It might as well be 20 meters thick to me though, I get messed up when I'm running on grass just because theres something touching my foot other than the ground.

I'd hardly say Lieberman was doing "pseudo-science" to advertise for vibram, because his research states that the thicker the sole of the shoe, the higher the impact, which includes ALL soles. Even if they made a shoe one micron thick it would still have a slightly higher impact than a barefoot, mostly due to the belief that this shoe will protect you a little bit, so you don't have to worry about how your feet are touching the ground quite as much.

Board, the guy really said barefoot was not an option? We're not even allowed to be crazy people anymore? I'll stand for being called a crazy hippy my whole life if thats what people want, but it is a possible life option, even if it keeps you from certain jobs and public places.

 

[Blind Boy]

Personally, I've stopped

Personally, I've stopped quoting Lieberman or even mention barefoot running as a solution. I do, however, quote other studies saying the same thing. People in general don't really understand how research is funded and that Vibram played a part in the Lieberman study makes it a little bit less useful in a debate. Also, as far as I know, that minimal shoes are close to barefoot is, in the scientific sense, still just a hypothesis. Robbins and Lieberman have come to different conclusions here and I haven't found enough support for one side over the other to really see who's right. Personally, I'm more inclined to listen to Robbins since it seems to fit with my personal experiences better.

 

[JosephTree]

Okay, my take on it is that

Okay, my take on it is that I'm either running barefoot or not. My VFFs are not barefoot. They do have a place in my running toolbox, for really rough terrain or for recovery from injury. My goal and my joy lies in Barefoot running, and I plan on doing that as much as I can for as long as I can.

...and Jen, in reference to your original post, I'm all in favor of "barefoot lovers" too!

 

[jschwab]

I think Lieberman's a hack.

I think Lieberman's a hack. Hubby has a family friend who is a researcher with him and I had to explain to her that landing on your toes is not the way to run barefoot. Once I demonstrated what barefoot practitioners know (you need to touch down the whole foot) it was completely obvious to her. He drives me crazy with all his forefoot/midfoot talk - it's confused so many people into hurting themselves.

 

[NakedSoleNate]

 I doubt very much I will

I doubt very much I will ever wear any shoes, of any kind, over any terrain, or in any weather again...(with the small exception of the shoe nazi at Harrisburg International Airport who made me don my flops for the minute and a half walk down the gang-plank)...frankly, I don't think I could fit into any pair of shoes anymore....I have kinda short feet, and they are superwide from 24-7 barefooting....one day this summer, I just tried wearing my home made hurraches to walk to lunch in to see how they felt, and just walking I could feel myself landing harder...so no desire to run in them either...in my future ultra endeavors, if I have to be slower because of it (not convinced I do yet), so be it...

Don't have much problem in most stores, and this last week had a great barefoot conv. with the bank teller at my local bank...if someone does give me grief, and won't listen to reason...I'll simply purchase what I need elsewhere...

That being said, with the understanding that minimalist IS NOT barefoot....I don't begrudge ANYONE who chooses to be minimalist for any reason what-so-ever...it HAS to be an individual choice...for me, the choice is simple, I do not want to experience life with anything between me and the soles of my feet.

Of course there will be some trade offs....I might not be able to run as long when the weather gets to be below 20 degrees...BUT I might be able to too...I just don't know yet :-D

 

[Jen]

Gratitude Joseph and here's

Gratitude Joseph and here's to many great trails to you and yours !

I agree dear JSCHWAB, that's why it is so important to read as much as one can on the subject. My goal is to keep healthy doing what I love and at the pace that's right for me.

To be limited to one man's (lieberman) opinion is not sound especially considering that he is in a high position through his affiliation with the Vibram Shoe and in the news. Have you checked out Youtube lately?

I was suprised and happy to find Dr Robbins' research as he offers much sound reasoning and seems to have kept quite a low profile in midst of the barefoot hipe over the years.

Dedication to help others and spread the word truly shines through. Thanks again for sharing everyone.

 

[Jen]

That is amazing

That is amazing ''NakedSoleNate'' and quite a shoeless match I must say !

Individual choice is where it's at right now, I cannot dissagree with this factor however there remains a need for footwear in society. I cannot imagine everyone walking barefoot during everyday life activities, at all times, even though I have been guilty of this pleasure myself.

The ''less the better'' and when more is required, than one must own his/her own pair !

Foot massage anyone? (I just got back from a marathon can you believe that)

 

[Jen]

Forgot to include, for anyone

Forgot to include, for anyone keen to this hot subject.



Clip on the vibram barefoot expert sprinting with ''Running Shoes'' ! No pun intended but well worth the view:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICNaSah5bAs



Keep the conversation going, I welcome your feedback.



Regards

 

[NakedSoleNate]

 I have to respectfully

I have to respectfully disagree...I do not believe there is a need for "footwear in society"...it is a social convention born out of ignorance....there is a need, however, for SOME people to wear shoes (neuropothies, injuries, etc)...and support peoples DESIRES to wear shoes too, for ornamentation if they so choose.....but I can easily imagine a world where it is the norm to go barefoot, and the people who wear shoes are the exception. Either way, baring specific reasons (OSHA sates them nicely) for foot wear, it is ALL about choice...and personal preference, there for, it shouldn't be "up to society" to dictate what I choose to NOT put on my feet ;-)