Support for the 'just run' approach to good form

Bare Lee · Aug 29, 2012

Here's a Times article about flawed research on running economy:

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/29/finding-your-ideal-running-form/

Unfortunately they do not name the shoe that the women wore, but I highly doubt it was truly minimalist, as most of them landed heel-first--they probably had a cushioned runner like the Merrell Bare Access or Nike Free. The 'just run' approach really comes into its own when you get the full proprioceptive feedback of running bare. Too bad they probably won't being doing research on what kind of form some random group of people would evolve over a similar period of novice running if they were barefootin' it.

I thought this bit was key:
“If runners can self-optimize,” as the women in this study seemed to do, then “maybe we should teach runners to learn to understand how the movement feels to them,”

That seems to be what has happened for me. As I've looked through some of the literature on running mechanics, it has helped increase up my evolving economy by introducing a conscious element into the feedback loop. I have a better image of what should be going on, and this image helps my body self-calibrate by feel somehow.

Hawkbilly · Aug 29, 2012

I'm not sure I took anything useful away from the article. I think non-runners, not in particularly good shape.....who then start to run, are very likely to make subtle adjustments in their stride simply because their muscles and ligaments are able to do things they could not when they started. Whether that's being more solid (less wobbly) on foot landing, more flex in the heel, or a faster return of the legs.......intuitively that seems like stuff you'd expect from all beginning runners. I don't know that it is a prognosis for future success (which is mentioned in the article).

The problem I have with the "just run" philosophy (as I understand it) is that it seems to presume your body & mind will somehow figure things out on their own. Mine does not. Yes, I'm a sample size of 1 which is always dangerous......but I frequently have to consciously tell my body to stop doing a bad habit it is returning to, and do it the way I think is better (and doesn't hurt). I consciously have to relax my shoulders (they tense up and and move higher), I have to remind myself to sink my hips (my legs straighten as I become fatigued), I have to remember to not hunch over or bend at the waist (my posture's not good to begin with, so I have to force my shoulders back and chest out). Lots of these little things. For me, these aren't things that "just happen". I make them happen. I've got a long string of injuries from running because things didn't "just happen".

When I was in my twenties and didn't know a darn thing about running, and didn't think a bit about the right way to do it (I thought you just did it) I got injured. So, I don't think the "just run" advice works universally. I'm sure it works for some. I watched a young girl run by me when I was driving to work this morning and she had the most perfect running form I've seen. She was light and effortless, perfect posture, quick turnover, and was landing on her forefoot. I watched her head and she was almost perfectly flat as she moved along the street, with no perceivable "bounce" to her running. She looked amazing. I'm sure she is "just running" and I'm sure she'll do very well with it if she keeps it up. That's not me however. I needed to learn to run, and am still learning. But that's just me.

JosephTree · Aug 29, 2012

Yes, the shoes are almost certainly prejudicial to form development and, certainly "just running" can only take you so far.

skedaddle · Aug 29, 2012

I will always believe that feedback from my own body will the best indicator of form, so i support the just run philosophy with a few caveats like 'too much too soon' and 'recovery is just as important as running' being a few.
For the casual runner, like me, form will find it's own level, but for those who have specific goals in mind for fast times, greater distances, or just pushing the boundaries in general, then a deeper knowledge of running mechanics is important, because these people are working outside of our natural running state and so enter injury territory.
We developed fast twitch muscles for fight or flight responses to get us out of trouble, the same way we developed slow twitch muscles for distance running. Using and training these muscle groups for competition is a modern adaption that has little to do with natural running and so people get injured.

barefootandagile · Aug 29, 2012

One can definitely improve his/her skill of running by doing running. Will a runner learn and improve even better with external input via coach or mentoring? That would depend heavily on what was being taught and who was teaching it. Also assuming the student is 100% compliant. So, in theory the right student, the right coach, and the best method and everyone would reach their best skill of running. In practice that doesn't happen for everyone so each works toward doing what they can to achieve his/her best. I like to encourage people to seek the best theoretical circumstances to insure the greatest chances for successful injury free running.

JosephTree · Aug 29, 2012

I was wondering what the right group of experimenters could do with a perfect opool of subjects (guinea pigs):
take a group of running virgins like those described in the NYT article, start them running BF, Min and conventionally shod, and monitor and encourage them through the process of transition into regular runners.

I'll bet you get at least 3 distinct results for running styles. The longer the experiment ran the more data on injury rates and quality of life, even, could be gathered.

Just dreaming, I'm sure.

Bare Lee · Aug 29, 2012

JosephTree said:
I was wondering what the right group of experimenters could do with a perfect opool of subjects (guinea pigs):
take a group of running virgins like those described in the NYT article, start them running BF, Min and conventionally shod, and monitor and encourage them through the process of transition into regular runners.

I'll bet you get at least 3 distinct results for running styles. The longer the experiment ran the more data on injury rates and quality of life, even, could be gathered.

Just dreaming, I'm sure.

Yah, that would be the ideal. I suppose Jason has already done some of this in a less controlled way, but little longitudinally.

scedastic · Aug 29, 2012

"Each woman was given a pair of running shoes that would not influence her natural mechanics, and each visited the lab before starting the running program."

Hmmmmm, and there was just a thread on here about trying to maintain proper form when wearing huaraches.
I wonder where they found such shoes that would not influence 'natural' mechanics?

scedastic · Aug 29, 2012

"“You can optimize your gait naturally,” she says, “by becoming more conscious of your running movement and how it feels.” "

K. Such general advice it could be a horoscope.

Last Place Jason · Aug 29, 2012

When I was ~~trolling~~ opening lines of communication the podiatrists' forum, several made a good point. They hypothesized that runners, if given enough time, will always gravitate toward their most metabolically-efficient gait regardless of the conditions (like what they have on their feet). This is the basis of our 'just run" theory, but it could very well be true for the maximally-shod, too. That crappy-ass gait (by our standards) we routinely see in an old road racer may be the most metabolically-efficient gait for them while wearing those shoes.

Evidence- anyone ever try running with a midfoot strike in Hokas? It blows. It's far more efficient to run with a heel strike, at least for me. I used a heart rate monitor as a somewhat valid measure of efficiency.

As humans, we're always self-optimizing everything from physical movement to thought processes. Shortcuts save energy, and that equates to survival in evolutionary terms.

Just something to think about...

Sid · Aug 29, 2012

Last Place Jason said:
They hypothesized that runners, if given enough time, will always gravitate toward their most metabolically-efficient gait regardless of the conditions (like what they have on their feet).

Sure, but what if what the most metabolically-efficient gait (for shoddies) is not biomechanically sound and causes injuries over time? Workers in factories may have their movements optimized, but still suffer from repetitive motion injuries, if the body wasn't designed to work that way for prolonged periods of time.

Last Place Jason · Aug 29, 2012

As their theory went, maximum efficiency would also minimize injury risk... in that condition. Sounded plausible to me. Of course, they could further reduce risk of injury by changing the condition and rediscovering maximal metabolic efficiency...

Bare Lee · Aug 29, 2012

I think also there's a tendency to confuse maximal efficiency and maximal performance. We're really talking about maximal efficiency within the proprioceptive feedback loop. If you want to maximize performance you usually need to add in conscious adjustments, that is coaching of some sort, whether self-, other, or letter.

Lomad · Aug 29, 2012

I'm a big 'just run' fan. Mainly because I don't like thinking. I did notice though, in last night's run, that I was much more midfoot-ish and quick steppy in my low , firm shoes than I have been in 8 months of foot-coffin trainers.

Bare Lee · Aug 30, 2012

Hawkbilly said:
I'm not sure I took anything useful away from the article. I think non-runners, not in particularly good shape.....who then start to run, are very likely to make subtle adjustments in their stride simply because their muscles and ligaments are able to do things they could not when they started. Whether that's being more solid (less wobbly) on foot landing, more flex in the heel, or a faster return of the legs.......intuitively that seems like stuff you'd expect from all beginning runners. I don't know that it is a prognosis for future success (which is mentioned in the article).

The problem I have with the "just run" philosophy (as I understand it) is that it seems to presume your body & mind will somehow figure things out on their own. Mine does not. Yes, I'm a sample size of 1 which is always dangerous......but I frequently have to consciously tell my body to stop doing a bad habit it is returning to, and do it the way I think is better (and doesn't hurt). I consciously have to relax my shoulders (they tense up and and move higher), I have to remind myself to sink my hips (my legs straighten as I become fatigued), I have to remember to not hunch over or bend at the waist (my posture's not good to begin with, so I have to force my shoulders back and chest out). Lots of these little things. For me, these aren't things that "just happen". I make them happen. I've got a long string of injuries from running because things didn't "just happen".

When I was in my twenties and didn't know a darn thing about running, and didn't think a bit about the right way to do it (I thought you just did it) I got injured. So, I don't think the "just run" advice works universally. I'm sure it works for some. I watched a young girl run by me when I was driving to work this morning and she had the most perfect running form I've seen. She was light and effortless, perfect posture, quick turnover, and was landing on her forefoot. I watched her head and she was almost perfectly flat as she moved along the street, with no perceivable "bounce" to her running. She looked amazing. I'm sure she is "just running" and I'm sure she'll do very well with it if she keeps it up. That's not me however. I needed to learn to run, and am still learning. But that's just me.

I agree Hawkbilly, that the 'just run' approach doesn't work for everyone in the beginning, although that is probably where it is most applicable, and for no-one in the end, if the end is to maximize performance. I wonder if it isn't best to let just about everyone run as they please for the first few months and then come in and see what improvements can be made after they've sorted out the basic stuff as best they can on their own.

I also noticed a few weeks ago while branching out into plus-hour runs that it helped to consciously think about form as I fatigued. I have a kind of 'just run' sweet spot after about a mile or two of warming up until whenever fatigue starts to set in.

I'm also reminded of that article Longboard recently posted which had a picture of a semi-experienced marathoner with terrible posture. The 'just run' approach wasn't working for her.

And there are probably no elite runners who became elite without some coaching, especially the sprinters, right?

dutchie53 · Aug 30, 2012

Than again some coaches are lucky and get athletes that are naturaly gifted. Some people get it some need help. Just like being back in school learning a new subject, some pick it just like that, some have to work at it, and a select few just don't get it. Some people even with coaching still have troubles understanding what is being presented to them make mistakes and get hurt. When I started running again after high school I "just ran". Going from doing the 1600m and 5k cross country in school to trying to go hard at full marathons was quite the learning experience. Got hurt of course, but like a good person after I got hurt the first thing I did was to get a little bit of understanding as to why I got hurt and how to keep it from happening again. So I get the "just run" thing, but in the end people would benefit from somone informing (or educating) them where they went wrong when they got hurt and how to prevent it in the future.

Bare Lee · Sep 19, 2012

A little more evidence that your body knows what it's doing (a good deal of the time):
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120802111336.htm

Sid · Sep 19, 2012

Hawkbilly said:
II watched a young girl run by me when I was driving to work this morning and she had the most perfect running form I've seen...She looked amazing. I'm sure she is "just running"

Or perhaps she's on the track team?

JosephTree said:
I was wondering what the right group of experimenters could do with a perfect opool of subjects (guinea pigs)...Just dreaming, I'm sure.

I'm all for research, but there are times when you just take your n of 1, forget the naysayers, and just go for it. Well, that's my strategy anyway.

Who knows? Maybe in 100 years, scientists will discover that barefoot is best, and everyone will be walking around without shoes. I won't be waiting around to find out.

(Then after another 1000 years, some fella will be messing around with a waffle iron...)

Barefoot Bone Rod · Sep 20, 2012

I happen to believe that running with so called proper form is instinctual for humans. I think the problem is that typical modern lifestyles jack with our posture, muscle strength, flexibility, range of motion, balance, etc, and this translates to all sorts of propensities to run with poor form/biomechanics as adults. Being aware of this dynamic and just hitting the pavement to "just run" without a mindset of needing to learn and correct is foolish. So I think you can argue a certain degree of re-learning is going to be critical for most adults starting a running program, and since most of us whove been running for years still battling the sedentary lifestyle, there is a need for some degree of ongoing conscious self correction. So I think what im trying to say is the "just run" philo has some real validity to it in a perfect world, but most of us dont live in a perfect world. I also think its not a black and white issue. Once you do find your proper form and are consistent at it, then it becomes more of a "just run" type of thing. Just my $.02

BR

Bare Lee · Sep 20, 2012

Barefoot Bone Rod said:
So I think what im trying to say is the "just run" philo has some real validity to it in a perfect world, but most of us dont live in a perfect world.

Then I guess I'm thankful to be living in a perfect 'just run' world right now. Except I would have to amend the slogan with the proviso:

and massage the bejesus out of your legs before and afterwards . . .

Now that I've figured that out, I've become a true believer again.

But I agree, for those for whom the perfect world remains elusive, there are lots of rules-based approaches that can help you get to heaven.

Support for the 'just run' approach to good form

Barefooters

Barefooters

Barefooters

Barefooters

Barefooters

Barefooters

Barefooters

Barefooters

Barefooters

Barefooters

Barefooters

Barefooters

Barefooters

Barefooters

Barefooters

Barefooters

Barefooters

Barefooters

Barefooters

Barefooters

Support Your Club

Forum statistics

Share this page