Maffetone Method...what's your experience with it?

#121
"Maffetone....   making

"Maffetone.... making people run slow since 1981" Sounds like a nice slogan.



All kidding aside. I bought Maffetone "The big book of endurance and training" thankfully I only paid $10 for it because it lost all it's appeal to me within 48 hours. I know this the new "in" thing right now, gotta love barefoot/mininal runners, seems like we are always looking for the easy way-out without putting in hard training.

Jason already said this but when I first heard about the Maffetone Method the first thing I thought about was this is how you train for an ultra, which I have not done yet.

My point is I just can't go out and run every run slow for 3 months hopefully seeing some improvement. Too many hills where I live, and I like to push myself and get a good workout. Definitely not for me, I run without rules.
 
#122
Lol Adam! Im all for making

Lol Adam! Im all for making life easier on myself, hence me getting on internet forums to discuss things as simple as running!
 
#123
Chaserwilliams wrote:Oh, for

Chaserwilliams said:
Oh, for those who doubt that running slow makes you faster, I just made a blog post on my 4th MAF tests results. Heres a link. www.chaserwilliamsisrunningaway.blogspot.com/2011/12/my-4th-maf-test.html
Click to expand...

nice improvements there!!!



What sort of runner were you before you started maffetone training? I was looking at a thread on the cool running forum for 06, and one guy made some great improvements, from 13 min miles down to sub 8 min miles over a few months. He had run a few marathons though in the past, and was also biking a lot at his MAF level.

I wonder whether more seasoned runners get better results than newbies?

Be interesting to find out where you were running wise befor starting this?
 
#124
6:15ish mile20:00ish 5k1:42

6:15ish mile
20:00ish 5k
1:42 half marathon

Thats all Ive timed myself in. Im also fairly confident that I could PR in any distance provided my damn leg would heal up...

I dont know why people are against improvement, but different strokes for different folks! As long as your happy with how your running thats all that really matters!
 
#125
just for the record. Had a

just for the record. Had a good treadmill run today and seem to have seen some progress.



I have run on the treadmill a fair bit, 1. for consistancy of pace, and secondly, for improved leg speed, much easier than in the real world to run at lower speeds etc on the treadmill.



Most treadmill runs have been something between 11 - 11.20 min miles since I started, on the road it goes out to over 12 min/miles due to the hills etc.



Today I did 5 min fast walk to warmup, then 15 mins building up from around 100 bpm to 127 bpm which is MAF-10 for me.



Then 45 mins at 132 bpm (MAF-5), finally 15 mins warmdown to 100 bpm and a 5 min walk home.



I knew that I was running most of this faster than before, AND at 5 bpm less than before as I was previously running all my runs at the MAF heartrate of 137 (180 minus age).



Whether the slower warmup and gentle pace increase stabilised my heart rate a little, but I completed the whole 7 miles or so with an average pace of 10.37 min miles (this included the warmup 15 mins and cooldown 15 mins).



Pace for the middle section included mile splits of 9:42, 10:01, 10:12, 10:21 and 10:45 with an average HR or 132 bpm.



This is a serious improvement over previous sessions, although I have seen a move in the right direction over the last week or so.



All good, long may it continue!!!
 
#126
Wild Runner wrote: I wonder

Wild Runner said:
I wonder whether more seasoned runners get better results than newbies?
Click to expand...



I remember on some other forum that I'm a lurker at. I think it might of been the Hal Higdon ones, someone comparing it to a tube of toothpaste. (paraphrasing since this was months and months ago) If you are just starting out you can push anywhere and see toothpaste, but eventually if you want to continue you need to start from the bottom and be a bit more systematic. It seems like a logical comparision and stuck with me.
 
#127
Chaser, Not sure I understand

Chaser, Not sure I understand your MAF tests. Are your HR increasing? Seems at one oint you were testing at 139 all the way up to 178. That isn't my understanding of the test. Static HR and benchmark times. Or am I reading it wrong. It is kind of hard to read in your blog.

For the NaySayers, I did stick very rigourously to Maffetone from June thorough Sept this year and saw some pretty good results. My MAF HR is 130, Yes I am 50 years old and I didn't cheat myself up to the Elite level and bump up to 135 although I was borderline on the rules and could have. There were times the HR wanted to stay around 135 and I let it. In the beginning I was running mid 11's and after a few months mid 10's. It isn't blazing fast but I was going after a 50 miler and a Mid 10 pace was more than I planned on running. In fact I'd have loved a nice even 11 or even 12 min pace for my first 50. The training paid off because I was able to maintain an 11 up until my DNF at 33 miles and never did I feel really tired or exhausted. I never hit a wall. My earlier pre 2011 attempts at long distances always ended up in a horrible crash. I am sold.

I started incorporating some Fartlek into my MAF training at the end of runs. I would go for a few hours at my MAF HR and then the last 30 minutes start some Fartleks to mess with the body. It added some speed work and made runs more fun at the end when you are already sort of brain numb. I can't really see where this causes a problem since two hours of burning fat really is training the body. Also there are days when I went out and did nothing but hill repeats as hard as I could go for 20-30 minutes. Basically I'd go until I puked. Then I would jog slowly back home. 90% of my training is MAF and 10% is Fartlek or Hill Sprints.

I'll be doing the same in 2012
 
#128
Lava, I do 2 miles with a HR

Lava, I do 2 miles with a HR cap of 140, then after a short break 2 with a cap of 150, break, 2 with a cap of 160, break, 2 with a cap of 170, break, then 2 with a cap of 180.

I like this better as it A) gives me a chance to run fast, and B) I get to see wether or not Im improving at the higher heart rates that arent getting any training.
 
#130
Ok, so I've read a lot of

Ok, so I've read a lot of debate on here about how this method will help make us better runners. I've also heard Mike say that this will make him a faster hill runner. Can someone please explain to me how this is possible using the Maffetone method? I can see becoming a more efficient hill runner, but a faster one I highly doubt if your worried about your heart rate being to high. Today I ran a 17+ min/mile pace uphill. I my heart rate kept jumping too high so I started walking at 14:30 min/mile pace and my hear rate dropped too low. What the hell am I doing wrong and how is it better to run like this? I felt like a car that was stuck in 4th gear when it should have been in 1st going up a steep hill. Hurt my knees and muscles going that slow.
 
#131
it's called patience. just

it's called patience. just becuase your son can walk you aren't going to send him the door to get a job are you?



it takes time. everyone who starts this has to walk uphill. hell, i did a little today but i was actually able to run a bit and if i stayed aware i could go further than i used to, or faster. it's not easy but will get easier and is worth it.



also running slow will burn that fat so that you're not so hungry after a run.
 
#132
NickW wrote:Ok, so I've read

NickW said:
Ok, so I've read a lot of debate on here about how this method will help make us better runners. I've also heard Mike say that this will make him a faster hill runner. Can someone please explain to me how this is possible using the Maffetone method? I can see becoming a more efficient hill runner, but a faster one I highly doubt if your worried about your heart rate being to high. Today I ran a 17+ min/mile pace uphill. I my heart rate kept jumping too high so I started walking at 14:30 min/mile pace and my hear rate dropped too low. What the hell am I doing wrong and how is it better to run like this? I felt like a car that was stuck in 4th gear when it should have been in 1st going up a steep hill. Hurt my knees and muscles going that slow.
Click to expand...

Have you read any of Phil Maffetone's books, or looked up any of the Mark Allen articles?? That would be a good starting point to understand the principle behind this.

Here is one

http://www.duathlon.com/articles/1460

Firstly, Maffetone is not all about running slowly, although this will happen for most people at the start due to generally poor aerobic fitness. Most runners run at far to high a heart rate most of the time anyway.

The idea behind Maffetone is working totally aerobically to improve health, allow you to increaser mileage without injury, and to allow for adaptations in the body to take place, such as increasing capillaries and mitochondria in the muscles, allowing for inproved oxygen supply and improved energy burning in the muscles.

It takes time, it takes patience, it takes IMHO, a person who is able to see beyond the typical training stance that tells you to work harder and faster to see results. No-pain - -No gain is a surefire way to get injured or sick if you work at too hard a level over the long term.

I am seeing some progress with the Maffetone method, and am going to continue with it exclusively for the next 4 months and build my base fitness. Maffetone is NOT about running slowly, it is about improving your body's ability to run faster for a given aerobic heart rate. When you race, you can run at a higher HR. You can do anaerobic training after building the base, this is not a SLOW running technique, although most people find that they have to run slow for the first few weeks and months due to poor aerobic fitness.

Hills are ok, but at the start, a treadmill works well to keep you running, and downhill runs allow you to increase speed and stride rate without going anaerobic.

There is plenty of info out there, the naysayers are often people stuck in the mindset mentioned above, those who have not tried it, or those who have not implemented the system effectively, such as doing some tempo runs or sprints during the base period.

Horses for courses, if you don't like or believe that you can run slower to get faster, then I would find a different training plan. As I said, it is not for everyone, it takes dedication and belief to get out and run slower than you are used to,
 
#133
Well now. Last night I

Well now. Last night I realized that my Aerobic state is in disorder. I have not run much at all in the past 4-5 weeks. Maybe 4 times at best. I decided to go out and try a nice flat 5 mile run. It was very difficult to maintain a HR of 130 at anything under 11:30 Pace. Seems I am back to square one where I started last June. I got a feeling that I could get it back very easily though since at no time did I feel tired, winded or sore legs.

Wild Runner, Great summation of the principle in Maffetones methods, your two paragraphs right after the link are perfect descriptions as I understand.
 
#134
WR, well sumarized. much

WR, well sumarized. much better than i can do. i did a maf run yesterday on the trails. while i shot over my hr, a lot, i felt great and could have easily run another hour if not two more on top of the two i did. my legs aren't sore today at all. i almost feel i should go out and do it again today. while i didn't blaze uphill i did see a small improvement in my time. very small.



i get the feeling those that say they can't do it are extreme type A or the entitled crowd who wants everything now.
 
#135
Wild Runner, I get the

Wild Runner, I get the general idea, but if you're walking uphills much faster than you can run I get lost with that principle. I understand I need patience and am trying to excercise it, but it's made more difficult when I'm confused. I am fine with the flats and downhills, it's just the uphill part that bothers me. It hurt's badly to run that slow uphill. It's like I said earlier, it's like trying to go uphill in a car in the wrong gear. Eventually you're going to blow your transmission doing that and that's exactly how my legs and knees feel while trying to keep my heart rate down. I had a buddy of mine that told me to just pick up my cadence, but my cadence is already at 180 and to go much higher than that makes my legs hurt again and wipes me out so completely I would be walking home the rest of the way instead of running. Besides, picking up the cadence shoots my heart rate sky high again. I'm just trying to understand so I can keep myself motivated to do this.

Oh, and I have the big book of endurance training and racing on order but apparently Amazon is being super slow and I won't have it for a couple weeks yet.
 
#136
I am walking up the hills

I am walking up the hills too, but it is improving. Even if you are just picking your feet up and bouncing along slower than walking pace it matters not. The development and adaptation you get from just jogging is different to walking. I use the treadmill quite a bit, it allows me to run at slower paces than running outside sometimes.

Walk up the hills if you need to, jog the flats, and take advantage of the downhills to get a faster turnover. I am coming to the conclusion that downhills are really useful to this system, and as Maffetone mentions in his book, you can use them to do 'intervals' without going above your MAF HR.

Just keep that heart rate below your limit, I am now working at MAF -5 a lot of the time, and 'cycling' between the heart rates, just to mix things up a bit. Also, I am playing with the durations of workouts to prevent things becoming to samey. Tomorrow, I will put a 2 inch block under the rear of the treadmill and run 6 miles downhill. Faster pace for the same pulse rate, and hope that additional legspeed will be useful.

I have been at this for only a month, and it is only the last 2 weeks I have upped the mileage to something remotely decent, 30 miles last week, this week will be 40 miles. Will keep it there for a couple of weeks, then go 45 pw, until I can get to 50-70 miles pw. That time on feet should make a big difference I am hoping
 
#137
I've been at this for over 3

I've been at this for over 3 months now and am starting to play around a tiny bit with my heartrate. I started at 180-age, which is 132 for me. I seemed to have reached a plateau, no improvements for 2 weeks, all three miles I ran at the same heart rate the speed was the same. So I increased my target heart rate by 2 to 134, had some more improvement. I just increased it by another two beats yesterday to 136, will see if that will help me improve a little faster. It was interesting that even such a small change made a noticeable difference in the effort of running but I was still pretty comfortable and could have run for much longer.

I will add for those that don't have the book yet that Maffetone tells people to add 5 beats to the formula for people who have been running consistently for 2 years or more. I will have been running for 2 years in April.

I think fine-tuning the heartrate can be helpful.

As far as running hills, I agree it can be frustrating to walk a lot, switching up very slow running and walking seems to work, though. I'm simply avoiding runs that have lots of steep hills right now and save those for when I have a better aerobic base.
 
#138
Lava, Im 27 and my HR is

Lava, Im 27 and my HR is capped at 150. I was 26 when I started this method.

Im beginng to wondee if I stick with this method and continue to see good improvements if I could just keep my HR cap at 150.... So that in 3 years, when 180-age=150 Ill be ok, and then 5 years later when 180-age=145 I can continue running at 150 because Ill have a strong enough aerobic system in place...

Oh, and Ive started eating alot better in the past wek or so. Trying to stay as natural / paleo / organic as possiblle. I kind of figure that I owe it to Maffetone to do this. If Im to be an example of his method I should follow it to the T, right?
 
#139
Oh, hills! I dont run hills

Oh, hills! I dont run hills because I live in a non-hilly area. I do have a very nice bridge I can / have ran over, just havent done it since starting with my Maffetone training. I do plan on hitting it alot in 2012 though.

Besides, the only hills Ill be running in races are during ultras, and most people walk the uphills in an ultra anyways!
 
#140
Chaserwilliams wrote:Oh,

Chaserwilliams said:
Oh, hills! I dont run hills because I live in a non-hilly area. I do have a very nice bridge I can / have ran over, just havent done it since starting with my Maffetone training. I do plan on hitting it alot in 2012 though. Besides, the only hills Ill be running in races are during ultras, and most people walk the uphills in an ultra anyways!
Click to expand...

Chaser, thanks for saying that again, there is no shame in walking if people who run ultras do it, right?
wink_smile.gif
 
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