Cadence Question

BillBlack

Barefooters
May 24, 2011
57
3
8
#1
Morning all. Just a quick question about switching to a higher cadence. I've been running for about 3 years and almost completely barefoot since May. In all that time I never really had any pain when I landed on my heel using a 180 cadence which almost matched my natural beat almost perfectly. I recently tried going up to 200 after a comment in another thread and found that if I landed heel first at this higher beat that I do experience pain when landing heel first and have to fiddle around with the way I land to find the sweet spot. I can't figure out what the higher bpm would be doing to cause the pain. I know im in contact with the ground less so it seems like there should be less pain. Any ideas?



Bill
 
#2
I think most would say, "180

I think most would say, "180 is a good starting point".

Personally, I'm a 186ish type runner but my wife is 170ish. You'll just have to experiment and see what works for you. Whatever cadence you choose, landing on your heels bf is not a great idea.

Have fun.
 
#3
pilotrunner wrote:Whatever

pilotrunner said:
Whatever cadence you choose, landing on your heels bf is not a great idea.
Click to expand...

I will echo Pilot. You shouldn't be landing heel first whether you're barefoot or in minimalist shoes. Should be forefoot first with the toes and the heels landing after that. When landing heel first barefoot or in minimalist shoes you can really hurt yourself.

As far as cadence my natural cadence is around 180. When I tried speeding up my cadence I would get tired really fast and couldn't run as far. It really does depend on the person and what feels comfortable to you.
 
#4
I understand that landing

I understand that landing heel first is a bad idea. What I don't understand is why don't I experience pain landing that way at the lower cadence but do experience it at the higher one.



Bill
 
#5
I would venture to guess that

I would venture to guess that it's like other things in BFing (and everything else, really). Try a more gradual change. I know there's the 10% rule and you've increased only slightly more than 10%, but you're talking heel strike, which arguably would need a more gradual transition and probably no one here would recommend and probably no one has the experience to guide you. But if you're determined, try upping the cadence 5 at a time and keep it there for longer periods and if it still hurts and you're still determined, make even smaller changes.
 
#6
Bill, if you understand that

Bill,

if you understand that you don't want to land heel first then why do you do it? slow down and teach yourself to land properly. don't worry about cadence or any other thing to occupy your mind. relax, straighten up, and run. everything will fall into place if you give it time. nothing happens over night and you can't skip the steps to get there.



to answer your question of why it hurts more to go faster is simple. f=ma. force equals mass times acceleration. the faster you go the more force is generated.
 
#7
...or maybe what you think of

...or maybe what you think of as "Heel First" might actually be more of a rear-midfoot sort of thing. It's just hard to imagine a real thumping heel banging landing on anyone running BF. Sometimes it's hard ot tell when evaluating yourown form. Stepping up the cadence then moves you back the critical few degrees and, voila! Ouch!
 
#8
Hey Mike, I guess I did sound

Hey Mike, I guess I did sound kinda confusing. I was just trying to compare the different ways of landing and came aacross a result I didn't quite understand.



Bill
 
#9
Try and get someone to video

Try and get someone to video you both ways. You may think you're doing the same thing faster, but actually be doing another. It usually takes me several runs and a bunch of miles before I straighten things out from any change in my form, cadence, speed, etc. Any way you slide it though, "if it hurts, don't do that" gets my vote! Heel striking has never been my friend!

-Jonny
 
#10
bill, ya anyway you dice

bill,



ya anyway you dice it, you don't want to heel strike. it's not optimal. its a braking motion. it's always going to hurt more than a forefoot landing. less nerves makes you drive it down more to tell the brain where the foot is. look at the basic anatomy of the foot. the heel looks like an anchor and the forefoot a suspension bridge. landing forefoot will spread the weight and landing on the heel makes it more into a hammer. you concentrate all of your weight onto it instead of spreading it out over the bridge.



does that help? it's a little longer explaination and still in layman's terms. if you can do video yourself or run with someone then do it. sometimes you can't tell if you're heel striking or not.

i swear i read somewhere, don't remember where, that heel striking you can only get to a cadence of 160 or so. i'm surprised if you got to 200 and that could be why you caused so much pain. anyway good luck.
 
#11
Bill - I've tried and tried

Bill - I've tried and tried to get myself to run at 180bpm and all it's gotten me is frustration, definitely not what I'm looking for from a run. I'm unable to measure my actual cadence but if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say I run from 165 to 172bpm when running BF. Bottom line (and this is just my humble opinion), run at a pace/cadence that's comfortable for you. I've given up pushing myself to hit the 180bpm mark and had some of my best BF runs yet.
 
#12
My natural cadence without my

My natural cadence without my doing anything is around 175-178. I got a metronome through the chi running web site earlier this year. Kept the metronome but decided against chi running.



Bill
 
#13
From the studies I've read,

From the studies I've read, heel vs mid/forefoot landing is not just a matter of which is better for your joints, health and running longevity, but there are some real posatives to the later.

VO2 max studies show an improvement in oxygen efficiency while using a forefoot/midfoot landing barefoot or in minimalist shoes, not because of the reduction in the pendelum effect from no shoes or lighter shoes, but because of the involvement of the foot arches, achilies and calves...our natural rubber bands. If you have a decent cadence and you do it right, it actually FEELS like cheating! The reason for that is the elasticity in the tendons and muscles that store energy from the compression and, if you take advantage of it before it discipates, give you an energy return one the "push". This means less work for the muscles which consume the oxygen, ipso facto, less energy and oxygen consumption.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I don't heel strike, cause I'm freakin LAZY!!! Land and push off, repeat, or boing-boing-boing...it's a no brainer! (I seriously hear "boing-boing-boing" in my head when I think about running! LOL) I'm 228lbs! I'll take all the advantage I can get!

-Jonny
 
#14
Bill,I agree with Jonny.

Bill,

I agree with Jonny. Once you get used to a forefoot landing (It takes a long time to build up your pads and calf strength), the return of energy is amazing. You feel like you can run forever.

As for cadence, a high cadence can be tiring. Find your zone and have fun. If a fast cadence hurts, slow down.

I have been trying the 100 up exercise and running in place in the last couple of weeks. It has really helped. Try it, I bet you don't land on your heels doing these drills.

Rick
 
#15
The slower you go, the more

The slower you go, the more you can get away with, but I'm all for no heel striking. Nothing good comes of it in my experience; in fact, 25 years of doing it has destroyed most of the cartilege in my knee and hip joints, and all of the cartilege in my right hip, which is what drove me to BFR as a possible way to be able to keep running. It works for me.

The faster you go, the more you have to lean forward, and the more you have to focus on your form, particularly when you're moving to a faster pace after steadily running a slower pace for some months. This could be why you're feeling heel striking more at the new, faster pace you're testing out.

As for cadence, it depends on how you're running and why. I'm running for cardio fitness, so I tend to go 5-7 miles at a 220 bpm cadence, which does indeed take more energy and significantly increase your heart rate, but that's what I'm going for. For more leisurely runs, a 190 pace works for me. Just go for what feels natural for the exercise intensity you desire.
 
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