Thoughts on minimalist cycling?

I find that most cycling

I find that most cycling shoes are too narrow for my feet, cycling for a few hours can be real annoying. If I run barefoot then start cycling my feet get a burning sensation for about 15 minutes, then it goes away.

So I'm looking into cycling Sandals from Bike Nashbar they are SPD compatible..

http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_169948_-1_201485_10000_200530

I've read a lot about both

I've read a lot about both opinions, but it seems to me that the most important piece is that lifting your foot on the up cycle. So barefoot or shod it shouln't really matter for performance, well maybe if you are a professional.

That said I ride a lot right now with my huarraches because by pedals are sharp, otherwise I would ride barefoot. I've never had a problem. Personally I think the potential is there for an accident regardless of footwear so I don't push it too hard where it is sketchy. It's more important for me to be able to ride everyday than get somewhere 12 seconds faster.

I have clip pedals on my

I have clip pedals on my bike, but it's more because I tend to kick my feet off as I pedal faster. I don't want to hurt my feet if they fly off. But otherwise, there's no real benefit to clip pedals and bike shoes. Cyclists have done studies that show that even the most elite cyclists can't use the "up" stroke of their pedaling to generate any significant power for more than a couple seconds. They really only help to keep your foot in the optimum pedaling position.

I've gone out and used my VFFs while biking a couple of times. I don't really like it. My problem is that the pain caused by the pedal against my foot limits how much push I can generate with my pedal stroke. You can't push as hard going minimalist as you can with carbon fiber bike shoes.

I don't really see cycling as a minimalist activity. Gaining speed in that sport is all about shaving lbs off of your bike, cool gear, and making your form more efficient. If you want a minimalist bike, get a fixed gear.

It is really easy to go gear

It is really easy to go gear crazy with the bikes! There's always some shiny new toy, some fun tool, or some fancy new bike on the market. Spendy, spendy, spendy... one can go nuts with the bikes. At some point, you have to say no to spending on the bike stuff. Is that minimalism? Sort of, but I agree, though, that there's no minimalist floor like there is with running.

I have clips on my pedals, too, saypay. They do the same thing for me - keep my feet on the pedal when I'm going faster. It makes a BIG difference in my riding (and my enjoyment of my riding, which, being a recreational athlete, is the part that matters most). When I'm out with my (little) kids, though, I usually flip the clips to the bottom and ride on the unclipped side.

I hate riding in my VFFs because my toes get tangled in the clip cage. I usually ride in chuck taylors.

You can attach those blocks

You can attach those blocks to your pedals.

http://www.amazon.com/Pyramid-pdh4111-Pedal-Blocks/dp/B000MK29H0



If you have SPD pedals you can clip these platforms to them.

http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_208876_-1_202130_10000_200409

These might be interesting to try barefoot or with socks.

 different perspective:it's

different perspective:

it's not fast or efficient, but you can learn a ton about biking, and exercise parts of your body you didn't know you had, by ditching the cleats and learning the true bunny hop and other tricks that require getting the rear wheel off the ground. BMX and trials riders do these things without cleats or other attachments.

this requires a kind of rearwards push on the pedals which ends up engaging your whole core.

usually bmx bikes have flat pedals with little metal studs on them. wouldn't want to go barefoot on them, but any flat shoe or sandal could work.

As a long time cyclist

As a long time cyclist (road), I would caution against transporting the barefoot/minimalist running philosophy or techniques to cycling. Keep in mind, we humans may have evolved to run, but the bicycle was invented in the late-nineteenth century. Thus the analogy of "evolutionary" cycling just doesn't hold.

I do see the following similarities:

1. cadence. A high cadence in cycling, as in running, is beneficial. It pushes the work from the legs to the heart and lungs, which is the same as saying it causes less strain on the knees and tendons etc. Lance Armstrong is just the most famous example of successful high-cadence cycling. After I switched to barefoot/minimalist running, I discovered that my running cadence went up--interesting enough, it then matched exactly the cycling cadence I'd had for years: 100-110 rpms (counting one foot).

2. Smoothness. If your bike is correctly fitted and adjusted, you can develop a nice round pedal stroke. And this roundness will feel (and even look) like correct running form. This, however, is dramatically helped by good shoes and click-pedals. For a smooth pedal stroke, just remember one saying "the heel down keeps the pedal round." This only really works with stiff shoes. "Mash, mash, mash" is usually a symptom of shoes that are not stiff enough.

The differences:

1. Your feet and lower legs are not made to resist the power in a pedal stroke. In fact, one would have to do just the opposite on a bike as we do in BFR: rather than relaxing the foot and lower leg, you would have to dramatically engage the foot muscles and calves. (And as we know, this active engagement is not what these muscles evolved to do.) Stiff-soles shoes help relieve the unnatural pressures on the feet and calves in cycling. Cyclists learn that you have to relax the foot for the rest of the leg muscles to work smoothly. "Unclench your toes" my coach use to yell. Toe clenching throws everything out of whack, but it is easy to fall into when you're pushing hard. If you have to hold on to the pedal (in barefeet or minimalist shoes), then you will have to clench something. (This might be fine in BMX, but not for long road rides.)

2. Don't pull up in cycling. It has been scientifically shown that it doesn't work (search google for Jobst Brandt on the topic). Concentrate on a smooth push just as the foot comes over the top through to the bottom. It is debatable (but also defensible) to use Greg LeMond's idea of "scraping the dog-doo off of the shoe at the bottom of the stroke". But at the bottom of the stroke, it probably works best just to keep the heel down.

3. On a bike, you can really injure yourself in a crash. It's bad enough to think of road rash on the legs if you crash. But the feet could really get mangled.



Other things to keep in mind:

1. Don't do ankling. This is a flawed technique aimed at using the calf muscles to generate a bit more power in the stroke. Everyone I know who has tried it (yours truly included), has ended up with some kind of injury (Achilles usually).

2. Buy your cycling shoes a size larger than your street shoes. The feet swell a lot when cycling. So the shoes should feel a bit loose when you put them on before a ride.

3. A fixed-gear bike can be great for developing a round stroke. (See Sheldon Brown on the topic, where you'll note he says that a fixed-gear bike without click pedals is only for advanced riders.)



My apologies in advance, if this started to sound like a lecture. I just had a very strong "No! don't do that" reaction as I read your post, txtenderfoot. I'd just hate to see anyone get hurt.

I am way into BFR and the whole naturalist philosophy that goes along with it. But, a bike is a machine. It's a different ball-game.

Cheers,

Paleo

{EDITED: some typos}

Paleo, I love all the helpful

Paleo, I love all the helpful information. I've been getting into cycling for cross training pretty seriously this year. Sadly, with the snow, my cycling season (outside at least) is over. Time to get a trainer for the basement.

Paleo wrote:I would caution

Paleo said:

I would caution against transporting the barefoot/minimalist running philosophy or techniques to cycling.... a bike is a machine. It's a different ball-game.

Click to expand...

Well crap Paleo, I am supposed to be working, and you leave "bike person bait" around on the forum. I can't resist jumping in here.

Techniques don't translate, of course. But the philosophy does.

txtenderfoot, this issue probably doesn't apply to you, but there is absolutely no question that one of the biggest problems with cyclists is that most of them don't know what the hell they're doing. I'm not talking about the efficiency of their pedaling technique, I'm just talking about their ability to handle the bike without crashing, to react if a dog or a runner gets in their way, and to smile while they're doing it.

There is definitely a running-shoe-type effect that infects adult bicyclists on road bikes. Not all of them. Not people who've raced, for example, but people who get a road bike to ride once in a while for exercise or recreation. They get preoccupied with gear and with details that people at the bike store tell them and they don't observe how the bike acts in response to their bodies. They don't observe what's happening around them either. Perhaps I see too many of these people because I live next to a major park where recreational biking is a big activity??

But for these people who have been paralyzed by their expensive experience at the bike store, anything that can break them out of this rut is a help. On the most elementary level I think this translates into any experience that can get them out of their bike seat so they can experience the full influence (for better or worse) over traction and balance that unweighting the butt gives them.

For example, a novice (which is basically 90% of bike riders) will learn a lot more about pedaling and balance from a single-speed road bike or fixie than a regular multispeed one, because on a single speed or fixie you've got no choice but to experiment with all sorts of body positions and cadences. Similarly, mountain biking and BMX encourage you to understand how your body influences the bike, and at lower, safer, speeds than road biking. Cyclocross racing is good too but novices rarely get in to that.

I guess I agree that biking is rarely the same kind of intimate connection with the environment that barefoot running can be. But a minimal bike like a fixie or a BMX can still teach you a lot about your body. And in that way the philosophies connect. Check out the way there is both relaxation and focus in an intermediate trick like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Orbqjzc-SS4

rachtenb wrote:I find that

rachtenb said:

I find that most cycling shoes are too narrow for my feet, cycling for a few hours can be real annoying. If I run barefoot then start cycling my feet get a burning sensation for about 15 minutes, then it goes away.

So I'm looking into cycling Sandals from Bike Nashbar they are SPD compatible..

http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_169948_-1_201485_10000_200530

Click to expand...

Oooh. Those look nice and at reasonable price. I bought a pair of Keen Commuter Sandals earlier this year.

http://www.zappos.com/keen-commuter-black-keen-yellow

(I got mine on sale so they weren't this expensive, but still more than the Nashbar you posted.)



I bought the men's shoe which is a bit wider than the women's. That plus the sandal aspect has made for a very comfortable cycling shoe. It's not the kind of firm fit that a serious cyclist would want, but I don't tend to ride longer than 10-15 miles and nearly all on paved trails (not roads). They work great for my needs.



(Edited to note that due to the less than firm fit they are a little sloppy when you uncleat from the pedal. It's not bad enough that I find it a problem, but it's something to be aware of if you're considering a cycling sandal.)



Peace,

Karen

I started with real clips and

I started with real clips and straps in the early 80's on my "tri-bike" (Dave Scott Centurion Iron Man) , used big clips and straps on my first mountain bike (1984 Stump Jumper), and moved into clipless for both road and off when SPD off-road first came out.

Adding my wife's bikes along with a tandem and triplet to the fleet ended up requiring us to own at least nine pairs of compatible pedals.

I was a year-round Michigan fitness cyclist, using minimalist SIDI off road SPD shoes that were just mesh and two velcro straps, and police SPD "boots" in the winter.

Pedaling & mashing hard (no such thing as a good "spin" when you captain a triplet pulling a trailer) locked into a specific position for all those miles caused my hallux joints to entirley deplete their cartilage, with arthritis and bone spurring settling in.

Our family had strict helmet rules for the kids, and I would NEVER have considered riding barefoot even to the neighbor's house even though we were a barefoot family. I would go months at a time without wearing shoes for anything except work or cycling, and my wife went months at a time without shoes except for our daily rides.

I even wore my rigid SPD's to ride a mile to a gate, where I would then store them in the panniers while walking barefoot for hours on end at an event.

When the kids got old enough to defy our helmet rules, I relaxed my personal shoe requirement and started doing recreational and local rides barefoot on beater bikes with filed down platforms.

I then purchased Pyramid "Barefoot" pedals, and expanded my barefoot cycling abilities.

As my Hallux Limitus worsened with age and shoes became less comfortable, my kids also became old enough to do the opposite of what my example set. No longer worried about being a potentialy harmful influence, I started real road rides barefoot. My hallux joints hurt too much cycling in any shoes, and I have become an always barefoot cyclist, owning at least six pairs of dedicated barefoot pedals. As a result I gave up cold weather cycling, which led me to a gym membership, which transitioned me to the elliptical trainer, which had me search for "barefoot" "shoes" to please the gym gods, which led me to RWBF, which turned me on to running knee-pain free, racing, and finaly the BRS.

Barefoot cycling definitly adds risk, and does indeed reduce potential performance.

For me though, it has been nothing less than a WIN!

BTW, my wife still has a totaly rational even for an almost 24/7 barefooter fear of spinning spokes and large chain ring teeth , so when riding in her groups on roads at faster speeds she wears shoes. Not cycling shoes anymore, just comfy semi-enclosed whatever those popular ones are with the webbing and holes that look rugged for outdoor activity.

They diminish her performance much more than her bare feet do, too flexi and too cushy, a big waste of energy.

My conclusions have been that the stiffness and hardness of the cycling shoe is important FOR A SHOE, but that even though a TRAINED bare foot makes up for that, the extra care to keep the foot in position is the real drawback in competitive cycling.

I accept the increased injury risk of barefoot riding and cycle safer as a result. I now bike like I skate, with an attitude that falling or crashing is no longer an option.

On single bikes I'll still suck tire, but nobody ELSE is going to be allowed close to me.

The fixie eliminates the un-chained large ring issue, as would any bike lacking a front derailler.

I'm thinking about a bike just like that, maybe 8 or nine cogs, one ring up front, eliminating what I consider to be the biggest non-crash barefoot potential for injury.

Then maybe a disc front wheel..........

Stomper, sorry for the

Stomper, sorry for the delayed response, but I could not skip my work obligations to continue the dialogue.

Stomper, I do agree with what you write about transporting the philosophy of BFR to cycling. And, I certainly agree that riding a fixie is an excellent way to improve your cycling skills (but, it is not for novices).

Interestingly, you point out how inexperienced many cyclists are--not having mastered the basics. This means is that cycling requires time and practice. In short, natural and relaxed only comes after many hours on the bike. Likewise, we talk here in the BRS-forum about how "natural" BFR is, and simultaneous stress all that is needed to learn and master the technique of BFR. That's a bit paradoxical. But, I think that any new skill requires this kind of practice. After years in shoes, BFR requires conscious practice (at least for adults).

There is another philosophical issue that can be applied to cycling: I call it primitivism. (Others call it "simplify your life", anti-consumerism or what not.) Primitivism is the rebellion of the civilized against the excesses of civilization.** It means that we get tired of a life of iPods and return to LPs. McDonald's is replaced by cooking with food grown in our own garden (a la Michael Pollan). In cycling it might be a fixed-gear bike made of steel instead of a carbon frame with the latest, lightest components. In running it is Barefoot over shoes. In any sport, it's hitting the trail sans heart rate monitor or even a stopwatch. In short, it means rejecting excessive luxuries and techno-nonsense for the sake of getting back to the "natural" pleasures of an activity.

So, yes, I think that one can be a primitivist on the bike just as in running. But, as we agree, a bike can never be the "natural" activity that (BF) running can be. That said, I have had some very "zen" moments as I cruise on my bike through a beautiful, natural landscape--feeling at one with the bike, with myself and with the surroundings.

Cheers,

Paleo



**This is, by the way, an established academic definition, coined by Arthur Lovejoy. It is not the same as being primitive. It is an attitude. Diogenes in the Barrel in ancient Greece was a primitivist. Rousseau was a primitivist. Oscar the Grouch is a primitivist. "Low Impact Man" was a primitivist for a year. But, a primitivist is under no obligation to be so 100% in all things. Nor does he/she have to live in a clay hut. It is always relative.



Full disclosure: My moniker, Paleo, comes from my wife, who sees BFR as "Paleolithic". Am I a primitivist? Yes, sometimes. I ride a fixie, but I also ride a stainless-steel custom frame with Campy Chorus components (no carbon). I run barefoot, but I also drive a modern German car. I eat organic and cook a lot from scratch. I don't watch TV, but I write this on a MacBook Pro. And, I find it hard to resist wearing my HRM, but if I did I would become nutso-ambitious and get injured.

I am giving it a go. I have

I am giving it a go. I have taken my clip peddles off and replaced them with flats.

Instead of shoes I am wearing socks, bread bags and neoprene boots. The weather has been cold this I week so I missed two days of biking to work (-20f with wind chill to -40 f)

Like with BFR you become very aware of your feet.

Paleo wrote:you point out how

Paleo said:

you point out how inexperienced many cyclists are--not having mastered the basics. This means is that cycling requires time and practice. In short, natural and relaxed only comes after many hours on the bike. Likewise, we talk here in the BRS-forum about how "natural" BFR is, and simultaneous stress all that is needed to learn and master the technique of BFR. That's a bit paradoxical. But, I think that any new skill requires this kind of practice. After years in shoes, BFR requires conscious practice (at least for adults).

Click to expand...

Good point, there's a contradiction here. Barefoot does teach you a lot about the natural, ingranined, art & skill of running, but the learning still takes time, a lot of time. I switched to nearly 100% BF more than a year ago and I'm still learning every single time. Biking, being a lot more artificial and technological an activity, probably requires a lot more effort in order to feel comfort and confidence. (With the exception of those blessed people who are have no sense at all of how dangerous they're being.) Perhaps that's why the people who have gotten relaxed and natural on their bikes are those who are trying to do difficult things on them... win races, or go up and down the local monster climb on their fixie, or master the fakie rollback.

Paleo said:

I have had some very "zen" moments as I cruise on my bike through a beautiful, natural landscape--feeling at one with the bike, with myself and with the surroundings.

Click to expand...

oh yeah, d*mn straight. One of the most magical nights of my life was riding a godawful Peugot mountain bike through the silent, frozen streets of Montreal. It was a wild goose chase that's not worth explaining. But I was never the same after.

You don't need BFR, or a fixie, or whatever, to have these experiences. It's just that sometimes all our tools get in the way.