Race speed vs. training speed

How much faster is your pace (minutes per mile) at a race?

  • I race about the same pace as I train

    Votes: 4 22.2%
  • up to 30 seconds faster per mile

    Votes: 5 27.8%
  • 30 -60 seconds faster per mile

    Votes: 6 33.3%
  • > 60 seconds faster per mile

    Votes: 3 16.7%

  • Total voters
    18

Tristan

Barefooters
Sep 15, 2011
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Something that I've always wondered, how much faster do people race compared to what they do in training for equal or perhaps slightly shorter distances. I'd probably know more about it had I read books on training and such, but I really have never followed any training plan and just went out there and did what I felt like. But I get pretty sore after races and in some cases to the point I limp for a few days (longer ones anyhow). I also tend to push myself to a lot faster pace during a race though, and I wonder if I am just pushing too much at the race, or not pushing enough in training.

Anyhow I am curious and thought I'd make a poll. Not taking the results as anything serious though, just for fun.

I think my speed disparity between training and racing is mostly consistent from 5k through 1/2 marathon distance. I find that in a race I typically run at least 30 seconds per mile faster pace than I do during training for the same distances, and if I am not pushing things a little I might fall back to around a minute per mile slower training. For example my race pace in a half marathon is currently around 7:30 pace but in training if I am doing close to 10 miles or so my pace is rarely faster than 8 minutes, and often 8:30+. Similarly for a 5k run I might be able to bring myself under 7 minute pace slightly if I am feeling very motivated, but no where near the 6:07 pace on my last 5k.
 
Very difficult question I guess all comes down to each individual.
For me I try to run my long runs at an easy pace(9:30/10:00 mm) when "training" for a long race and when race day comes along, I pick a comfortable pace to start the race, and if it's a marathon I am constantly repeating myself that this is another training run(so I don't crash too early) and after the midway point I ran progressive miles within my limits, and perhaps I don't push myself too hard because I am never sore after the race:happy:. On the other hand, on shorter races, I start fast(for me) from beginning to end, it's all the weaving around people that slows me down and again I am never sore after.
Uhm, maybe I need to push myself a little, nah:inpain:
 
I usually do better in races then in training. I voted for 30 - 60 seconds, but it might actually be faster. It seems as though the wave of people passing me pull me along with them, maybe there is some type of drafting effect as well. Then you also have all that adrenaline kicking in giving you an extra boost. Of course at the end I push a little harder and try to pass at least one of those fat guys, cause how can they be 100 pounds over weight and do so much better then me. But alias they still beat me to the line. Maybe I'll do better now that I'm a barefoot runner, can't wait for my first race this summer.
 
@Barefoot Dama Sure pace varies throughout the run, I'm just speaking average here. I may start out modest, often times stuck in the crowd early on then try to pick things up, and go all out at the end. But when I say my half marathon pace is xx:xx I mean averaged out for the whole race.

Just another example since I ran exactly a half marathon for my long run a couple days ago, I struggled to hold a pace 1-minute slower than my last couple halfs. There were a couple miles that were slightly faster than +1, but then more miles that I was running well over a minute slower.

@hikerdana Good luck but do take it a bit easy with the first couple barefoot races, don't want to overdo things ;) and plenty of time to work on the PR's later. I know a lot of it has to do with the feeling of racing - being bit by the race bug as they say I guess. When I run I am almost always solo, but being in the crowd at a race gives a different feel. I feel competitive, and I actually have people right around me I am competing with. It feels motivating when I'm passing people, and the faster ones ahead give me targets to attempt. And sometimes the spectators and cheering really help boost emotions. When I am training and alone to my thoughts and just enjoying the scenery I just struggle to go very fast.
 
@Tristan - not overdoing it is constantly in the back of my mind. I'll carefully access where I am at and set a realistic goal the week or so before the race. Right now my goal is to beat my PR, but I do realize that might not happen, but I love setting lofty goals, gives me something to aim for. Though my biggest goal right now is to just finish a race barefoot. Even that goal will be reviewed come race day and when I need to decide if I should carry some lite weight shoes with me. My longest barefoot run so far is 1.75 miles. My first planned race is a 5K in July, so I think I have plenty of increase my mileage by that time.

I too run alone and am only pulled along by my own thoughts and how I'm feeling that day. Some days I struggle to go fast and other days I struggle to slow it down, especially if I've ran the last run really fast, I know I need to take it easy on the next run. Right now I'm just having fun learning what my feet can do one step at a time. Saturday I had planned a run, but had spent the day barefoot and did quite a bit of walking on a variety of surfaces, even spending some time in a playground covered in pea gravel. So while my feet were not sore, I was aware that my feet had a workout that day and postponed my run till Sunday.

Thanks for the advice, I can never be reminded to take it easy to often.
 
You know, you don't actually have to do whole training runs at the same pace. Tristan, try throwing some higher pace miles or even half miles into your pre-race buildup period. It might help your body gently acclimate to the heavier stresses you're hitting it with on race day.

When I was running faster, like your paces now, I'd run my favourite LONG hill workouts and a few fartlekish workouts (as near as one can get running by himself.) I'd push hard on those, but not for miles and miles. I rarely was sore after a run.

Now I happily watch the pack from behind on race days. Sigh.
 
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You know, you don't actually have to do whole training runs at the same pace. Tristan, try throwing some higher pace miles or even half miles into your pre-race buildup period.
Oh I do, my speed work outs are usually .5 mile or 1 mile intervals, especially if I have a 5 or 10k race on the horizon which I do now mid-May. Usually one can run faster if for shorter distances, but this is why I specified for the same distance so as to put the race and training more apples to apples to see how much harder folks push on race day.
 
Gad! Wish I knew then what I know now!! Back in triathlon days ( early 90's), my training motto was, "if you're not pukin' bile, pissing blood, or sweating bullets then you're not going hard enough"! No wonder I was in physio lots.
 
My favorite race to run are Half Marathons now, I have retired from full marathons:) I don't like to make running too technical but in general I'm very happy when I run a half marathon at an 8:30 pace, less even happier! Saying that I run my long runs at an 9:30 pace or 9:00.

The slower you run the faster you become. Doing long runs in a anaerobic state is not only less taxing on the body, but also prepares you to run faster when it comes to race day.
 
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My favorite race to run are Half Marathons now, I have retired from full marathons:) I don't like to make running too technical but in general I'm very happy when I run a half marathon at an 8:30 pace, less even happier! Saying that I run my long runs at an 9:30 pace or 9:00.

The slower you run the faster you become. Doing long runs in a anaerobic state is not only less taxing on the body, but also prepares you to run faster when it comes to race day.

I really like halfs too, and swore off fulls after my first 2 left me pretty hurt. But I am going to try it again this year, at least if I get some proper training over the summer. I'llhave a good training race late summer too, 18-miler race, one of the rare few that fall between the 1/2 and full so that wil give me a good idea where I am at. I did the 18 miler last summer it was limping for 3 days, so if I can't get better training in this summer it should be my go/no go test for the fall marathon.

Yeah sounds like the ol Maffetone method (not that he is the only one preaching running slower). Funny I just ran with HRM (Tuesday) for the first time in about a year to see how my MAF is doing and it was very surprisingly well over a minute faster pace then ever before. Though the cold probably was helping that. Most of winter I run slow, so that probably helps. But I've never followed the plan to a tee. I mostly did the first year and didn't see any gains. Then later years I didn't really follow it and have seen good MAF rate improvments go figure. I've just been introducing speed workouts for maybe a month for a couple races approaching in May (1/2 and 10k that I really want to go all out).
 
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For me, race speed is about 60s faster than my usual running, maybe more. Depends mainly on how much I push myself. And I usually run pretty slow in my day to day runs. I don't like punishing myself, I want to enjoy it. If I really wanted speed, I would revive my old cross country shoes ;-) ...

As for the Maffetone method, one factor to be kept in mind is that it has been proven with top-level athletes. Slow running for these guys is around race pace for the recreational runner. On top of that, they run much more mileage, often more than triple of what a serious recreational runner can typically manage. For them, Maffetone is a way to get the necessary conditioning in without overuse injuries and adrenal fatigue. But still, their "slow" running is much more like actual running in terms of muscle recruitment patterns. So I guess they get more out of it than recreational runners do, since for most of these the running pattern breaks down to a slow jog without a lot of posterior chain involvement when they try to stay inside the Maffetone heart rate limits.

That said, if you are not looking at running from the viewpoint of power improvement and speed, but from a health and fun perspective, barefoot Maffetone running is about as good as it gets. Gentle, fun, no pain. Add the occasional stupid surge down a slope in the woods, or up some rocky hill, and it is actually quite some fun.

Cheers, and good luck with your races,

Christian
 
@Barefoot Dama Sure pace varies throughout the run, I'm just speaking average here. I may start out modest, often times stuck in the crowd early on then try to pick things up, and go all out at the end. But when I say my half marathon pace is xx:xx I mean averaged out for the whole race.

Just another example since I ran exactly a half marathon for my long run a couple days ago, I struggled to hold a pace 1-minute slower than my last couple halfs. There were a couple miles that were slightly faster than +1, but then more miles that I was running well over a minute slower.

@hikerdana Good luck but do take it a bit easy with the first couple barefoot races, don't want to overdo things ;) and plenty of time to work on the PR's later. I know a lot of it has to do with the feeling of racing - being bit by the race bug as they say I guess. When I run I am almost always solo, but being in the crowd at a race gives a different feel. I feel competitive, and I actually have people right around me I am competing with. It feels motivating when I'm passing people, and the faster ones ahead give me targets to attempt. And sometimes the spectators and cheering really help boost emotions. When I am training and alone to my thoughts and just enjoying the scenery I just struggle to go very fast.


I really like halfs too, and swore off fulls after my first 2 left me pretty hurt. But I am going to try it again this year, at least if I get some proper training over the summer. I'llhave a good training race late summer too, 18-miler race, one of the rare few that fall between the 1/2 and full so that wil give me a good idea where I am at. I did the 18 miler last summer it was limping for 3 days, so if I can't get better training in this summer it should be my go/no go test for the fall marathon.

Yeah sounds like the ol Maffetone method (not that he is the only one preaching running slower). Funny I just ran with HRM (Tuesday) for the first time in about a year to see how my MAF is doing and it was very surprisingly well over a minute faster pace then ever before. Though the cold probably was helping that. Most of winter I run slow, so that probably helps. But I've never followed the plan to a tee. I mostly did the first year and didn't see any gains. Then later years I didn't really follow it and have seen good MAF rate improvments go figure. I've just been introducing speed workouts for maybe a month for a couple races approaching in May (1/2 and 10k that I really want to go all out).



I would love to run a full this year, but it's the training that I really don't have time for. For a full I definitely like to go into the race prepared, with a half you can kind of get away with half-a$$ training:) I saving to get the new Garmin 235 which has a built-in HRM. I have never ran with HRM before so curious how it goes.
 
For me, race speed is about 60s faster than my usual running, maybe more. Depends mainly on how much I push myself. And I usually run pretty slow in my day to day runs. I don't like punishing myself, I want to enjoy it. If I really wanted speed, I would revive my old cross country shoes ;-) ...
barefoot isn't really slowing me down much so I don't worry about that aspect. As an adult I'm still much heavier (15-20 lbs I think) and not as lean as I was back in my crosscountry days but my last 5k was getting close - as fast as my average 5k was back in high school and not much more than a minute behind my record 5k. Realize I had about a decade off in my 20's and really got out of shape. After 2-3 years back at it in shoes, my fastest 5k was 4+ minutes slower!


As for the Maffetone method, one factor to be kept in mind is that it has been proven with top-level athletes. Slow running for these guys is around race pace for the recreational runner. On top of that, they run much more mileage, often more than triple of what a serious recreational runner can typically manage. For them, Maffetone is a way to get the necessary conditioning in without overuse injuries and adrenal fatigue. But still, their "slow" running is much more like actual running in terms of muscle recruitment patterns. So I guess they get more out of it than recreational runners do, since for most of these the running pattern breaks down to a slow jog without a lot of posterior chain involvement when they try to stay inside the Maffetone heart rate limits.

A very good point and I'm not sure if in the past Maffetone discussions I've read that it was ever brought up. The benefits may be greater for a pro athlete who is running a lot more mileage and already in better shape than a lot of us. This may be why so many recreational runners try it and don't experience any gains. I'm certainly no pro and maybe this also goes along with my experiences - years ago when I tried it I didn't see much gains but my MAF pace was over 10 minutes / mile (maybe over 11 I can't remember for sure) which is more of just a slow jog or warm up speed. I suppose you can't expect to make large gains running so slowly. Being in that range perhaps any amount of training would help, regardless of MAF. After running many slow runs I do notice the lack of engagement and motion of many leg muscles, a good fast pace feels nice to stretch them out and fully engage them. Perhaps once your MAF rate gets up to these more engaging speeds the benefits are greater... and if my last run is any indication I am getting into this range now.

Anyhow, I didn't mean to turn this into an in-depth discussion of MAF or anything, was just curious how hard folks here push themselves at races compared to training.

@Barefoot Gentile yeah the training mileage is the hardest part for me too. I have the will, the desire, the drive, just so hard to find the time. Working long hours of shiftwork, a son at home not old enough to be left alone for too long (and single), makes it hard. I often wonder if I am at about my limit in what I can handle in my situation. Sometimes training is counter productive when you've sat for 14 hours without barely stretching your legs, for a few days in a row. Legs are tight, back is sore. I try to get a couple easy run days in before doing anything serious after a few shifts at work, but the problem is often I'm only feeling ready for a good hard day of training by the time I go right back in on shift. :sour: Then at race day if I go all out I end up hurt'n pretty bad :dead: I've made a lot of progress learning how to deal with shift work in the last year or two though, so this year will be a good test.
 
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