Minimalist running shoe for slush and ice

moominmamma

moominmamma

Barefooters
Nov 8, 2010
72
33
18
New Denver, BC, Canada
#1
Haven't bought any running shoes in 15 months and on the cusp of yet another winter, having just turned officially old and recently won an age-group 1st thanks to that passage, I'm feeling the need for a treat. I run barefoot except on rough trails or in the depths of winter, in which case I've been using NB Minimus Trails. I use them for pretty much anything, and I like them a lot. However, their traction on ice isn't great, and they offer no protection from the chilling effect of splashes of slush. I live in the mountains in BC, Canada, and our temperatures are usually in the zero to minus-12 degrees Celsius range, where ice and slush typically alternate, often on different parts of the same run. I've used 1/4" hex-head screws in the bottom of non-minimalist shoes in the past to great effect, but the lugs on the soles of the Minimus aren't thick enough to take the screws.

As far as I can tell, my ideal winter running shoe would be a cross between the VivoBarefoot Neo Trail (zero drop and water-resistant) and the Invo-8 Oroc 280 (aggressive lugs and studded). I'm almost tempted to try the Oroc, but I don't like the 6 mm drop and the additional rigidity.

Does anyone know of anything new out there that might fit the bill? A truly minimalist off-road shoe with water resistance and enough of a lug to take studs ... or with studs already installed?

Thanks for any thoughts.

miranda
 
#2
Have you thought about the VFF Lontra?

Lontra.png

The all-new Lontra makes cold weather running in minimalist footwear a breeze. A multi-layer laminate upper with fully taped seams provides insulation and water resistance. The micro-pile fleece liner is soft against the skin while helping wick perspiration away from the foot. Other features include a neoprene heel cuff to keep out snow and debris, and a reinforced hook-and-loop closure for a snug and secure fit. Run safely at night with reflective surfaces for enhanced visibility. The 4mm EVA midsole provides insulation from frozen surfaces, and the TC-1 Dura outsole provides traction, durability and superior plating protection. Machine washable. Air dry.


The Spyridon looks like it has great traction but may be lacking in cold protection. You could pair it with some wool toe socks, but you might want to go up a size to accommodate them and the swelling that takes place, naturally, when you run.

Spyridon.png

The Spyridon offers the same great minimalist trail running experience as the Spyridon LS providing the perfect balance of “foot feel” and protection on rugged terrain. With Vibram’s 3D Cocoon technology, the Spyridon has a multidirectional sole, which allows for impact protection from stones and debris with minimal weight. The Coconut Active Carbon upper breathes naturally using 34% post industrial coconut fiber. It is finished off with an adjustable hook-and-loop closure ensuring a secure fit and reflective applications for safety after dark. Machine Washable. Air Dry.


It would be nice if they had a combination of the two.

Oh, these are "boy" colors, BTW, so if you want to see girl colors, go here: http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/index.htm
 
#3
Good suggestion, though generally I don't like VFFs for the feel of the stuff between my toes. And while I'm less concerned about protection from the cold than about water-resistance (if my feet are dry, I can keep them warm by running hard), I do find that just as mittens are warmer than gloves, traditional shoes are warmer than 'toe-shoes.' Separating the toes means they can't warm each other up.

I admit that the seam-taped water-proofness appeals to me a lot in the Lontra. On the other hand, general traction on snowy trails is not a big deal for me, but for traction on ice I still want metal. We have perfect conditions for black ice here, and I've had enough experience with it to know that studs or spikes are the only answer on the worst days.

P.S. I like boy colours best. :)
 
#4
The lugs on the Vivo Neo Trail might not be substantial enough to take the screws, due to their shape (viewed straight-on they're chevrons). If you can't find lugs that are suitable for screws, it's best to go without lugs entirely and instead, choose the most flexible shoe, with a sole that provides the most surface contact to the ice. Unfortunately the shoe most like that, the Altra Adam (or Eve), has apparently been discontinued. If it even needs to be said, get the shoe large enough to accommodate a thick sock-layer (I go one size up from my measured size).

Using socks of quick-drying natural fibers (wool, alpaca, etc), along with plenty of ventilation in the shoe upper, is better, IMHO, than having a waterproof shoe with zero ventilation (neoprene, etc). Both will be warm but, the waterproof option will be really sweaty and un-natural.
 
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#6
don't people use yak trax to strap to shoes instead of using screws? that way you don't have to worry about sole thickness but just comfort.
 
#7
I don't think you will have much luck finding a minimalist shoe with your criteria. I was looking last year for something similar to run in the snow. Just out of the minimalist category, I am really happy with the NB MT110 winter boot. Not much interest in them, I think most stores are closing them out, I picked up another pair online for $45. Smaller lugs, but I think you could install small screws into them.


I also believe Salomon makes winter running shoes that have studs. The price and the heel to toe drop made me not consider those.
 
#9
migangelo said:
don't people use yak trax to strap to shoes instead of using screws? that way you don't have to worry about sole thickness but just comfort.
Click to expand...

Comfort is the issue: I find YakTrax really uncomfortable on a minimalist shoe. With a flexible sole you really feel the device constantly pressing its ridges into the bottom of your foot at specific spots.

The IceBugs are intriguing; I had never heard of them. They do have a flexible-sole 4mm-drop shoe (the Spirit) which sounds like it's probably on the edge of the minimalist spectrum, though it's still more shoe than I really want. The narrow last isn't a problem as I have quite narrow feet. But ordering sight-unseen from Sweden or the US at $150-200 isn't really in the cards.

I totally understand about lots of flexible contact with what's underfoot, and fast turnover helping traction and all that. Most of the time I manage with "normal" minimalist shoes. But my standard winter running route is a 5-8 km out-and-back up the road from me, and the first kilometre has 150 metres of climb: there are a few days each winter when I cannot even stand on the ground without sliding backwards downhill on the ice: those are the days I want studs. They are miraculous, but I want them in as minimalist a shoe as I can find. So far that's looking like Inov-8 BareGrips, though I'd probably have to add a gaiter on slushy days. Anyone try those? They get pretty good reviews.

Miranda
 
#10
Bare Lee said:
Nyah, have you compared the Altra Adams to other minimalist shoes? I have the Vapor Gloves, which are great for groundfeel, but the traction leaves something to be desired in icy conditions.

On EBay for $29: http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/390527608227?lpid=82
Click to expand...
I've compared the Altra Adam to lots of so-called minimalist shoes, in person, yes. I haven't examined the Merrell Vapor in person yet so, don't know how these two shoe models compare in flexibility. Certain aspects can be compared by viewing photos though, such as big-toe room and the tread suitability on ice.
 
#11
Nyah said:
I've compared the Altra Adam to lots of so-called minimalist shoes, in person, yes. I haven't examined the Merrell Vapor in person yet so, don't know how these two shoe models compare in flexibility. Certain aspects can be compared by viewing photos though, such as big-toe room and the tread suitability on ice.
Click to expand...
Well, I already went and ordered them on Ebay for $29. Several online reviews said the traction is good on wet surfaces, which I'm taking as a proxy for icy surfaces. I don't think photos really help, as tread on a minimalist shoe will have to be similarly minimal. I would think the difference would be in the grippiness of the material used. I'm hoping the Adams are a bit more grippy than the Vapor Gloves, but good traction might be asking too much from any shoe with such little tread. We'll see. In any case, thanks for the recommendation.

The Vapor Gloves are fine in dry conditions, and some kind of smart wool sock makes them warm enough in really cold temps as long as you keep moving. I like the Neo Trails for fresh snow, but the lugs really bother me over patches of dry asphalt or sidewalk, not so much the feel of the lugs through the thin sole, but rather the overall stack height. The Inov-8 BareGrips look similar, maybe superior to the Neo Trails in snow, but would give me the same problem of being too high on smooth surfaces, whether icy, wet, or dry. There probably won't be a really good lugless minimal shoe designed for winter use until there's quite a few more barefoot runners who only need shoes when it's really cold and/or icy out. Right now it seems you either buy a shoe made for trail running with lugs or aggressive treads or a shoe made for warmer or wet road running.
 
#12
Nyah said:
I've compared the Altra Adam to lots of so-called minimalist shoes, in person, yes. I haven't examined the Merrell Vapor in person yet so, don't know how these two shoe models compare in flexibility. Certain aspects can be compared by viewing photos though, such as big-toe room and the tread suitability on ice.
Click to expand...

I have both the Adam and Vapor glove and in terms of flexibility they are quite similar but the Vapor glove is somewhat narrower across the forefoot. I've not run in the VG yet but they are fine to walk in.

I found that my technique/weight placement had to be spot on last winter when I was running in the Adams on inclined slush ;)
 
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#13
Traction on ice depends on three factors:

1. Impermeability to moisture.
The reason why a leather tread won't be as good here as one of rubber.

2. Flexibility.
A stiff shoe doesn't allow the foot to conform to the shape of the ground surface. The more flexible the shoe is, the more the foot can do.

3. Surface contact area.
If the lugs can't bite into the ground surface, they actually have a negative effect, due to reduced contact area. This is one of the reasons I give the Altra Adam points over the Merrell Vapor.
 
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#14
DNEchris said:
I have both the Adam and Vapor glove and in terms of flexibility they are quite similar but the Vapor glove is somewhat narrower across the forefoot. I've not run in the VG yet but they are fine to walk in.

I found that my technique/weight placement had to be spot on last winter when I was running in the Adams on inclined slush ;)
Click to expand...
Thanks for the input Chris. Any sense about whether one sole is grippier than the other? As I've stated above, I don't have high hopes for either the Adam or the VG, but if the Adam has a bit of an advantage, I guess it's worth an extra $29. On a large patch of ice I switch to a higher cadence, but it's the smaller, black ice type patches that catch me off guard and for which I'm seeking a bit more of an advantage this winter.

I've also found the VG fairly narrow, but I have narrow feet so that didn't bother me.
 
#16
Nyah said:
Traction on ice depends on three factors:

1. Impermeability to moisture.
The reason why a leather tread won't be as good here as one of rubber.

2. Flexibility.
A stiff shoe doesn't allow the foot to conform to the shape of the ground surface. The more flexible the shoe is, the more the foot can do.

3. Surface contact area.
If the lugs can't bite into the ground surface, they actually have a negative effect, due to reduced contact area. This is one of the reasons I give the Altra Adam points over the Merrell Vapor.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I follow your last point, but I understand your conclusion! Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Line Kolbe said:
I have the spyridons and love them.. great grip.
it's true though, that the toes get cold because they are separated.
I've heard that the lontras are cold too for the same reason even though they are thicker in the fabric and water proof
Click to expand...
Yah, kinda like gloves versus mittens. I only use shoes when it's really cold out, like below -5 or -10 C in dry (including icy) conditions, or below 0 to -5 in wet or snowy conditions, so toe warmth is a consideration. Especially this coming winter when I anticipate running in the morning at least some of the time. Last winter I did all my running in the afternoon.
 
#18
Geez, for barefooters you guys seem to have a lot of shoes. :D I have Vivo's and Kigo's and the Kigo's are my shoes of choice here in Winterpeg. Smartwool socks are enough to keep somewhat warm down to -35 Celcius. The snow for most part is dry and does not offer too much problem for traction. The wet snow at the start and end of winter make for slippery running.
 
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#20
dutchie53 said:
Geez, for barefooters you guys seem to have a lot of shoes. :D I have Vivo's and Kigo's and the Kigo's are my shoes of choice here in Winterpeg. Smartwool socks are enough to keep somewhat warm down to -35 Celcius. The snow for most part is dry and does not offer too much problem for traction. The wet snow at the start and end of winter make for slippery running.
Click to expand...
Yah, I have my doubts that one more pair of shoes will make a difference, and if I had to pay full price I probably wouldn't give the Adams a try, but for $29 free shipping I think it's worth a gamble if it can help prevent one or two wipe-outs on black ice, or on one of those melted-snow-refrozen-as-ice-patch sections that tend to appear on uneven sidewalks. Four or five sources (here and online reviews) have now endorsed the Adams as being OK for traction.
 
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