TMTS or just unlucky? Advice for a beginner please.

LillyBeth

Barefooters
Jun 4, 2013
11
4
3
West Midlands
I could really do with some advice please as I'm a complete beginner to minimalist running and am concerned (especially now I have an injury) about doing too much too soon or not doing enough of something. Most of what I've read online assumes a certain level of knowledge, which invariably I don't have, so it's hard knowing what to do for the best.

The story so far is I bought my Vibram Five Fingers in mid March and started walking on road for 2.5 miles, progressing up to 12 miles off-road once my feet and legs felt OK. I also did some calisthenics about 3xweek to try and strengthen my lower legs (heel raises, squats, lunges, and one-legged squats).

On 21st May I started following the "Couch to 5K" programme, so was running 3 times per week, one being on short grass, the other 2 being on road, trying to be light on my feet, midfoot striking and quicker cadence than when I ran in cushioned shoes years ago. All seemed to be going well until I developed soreness right round my left ankle (part of which feels like a bruise when I press my ankle bone on the inside) on my last run on Tuesday, which I suspect was the result of a slight ankle twist a few days before when trying offroad. Before that I'd developed a vague odd sensation which felt a bit like when you have a dead leg just before the feeling comes back completely; not numb as such but not 100% right. I can't quite pinpoint where it originates as it's really vague so it seems to be my entire left leg. It's not got worse or better, but I'm now not running for fear of making things worse.

Please help. I've only missed 2 scheduled runs and I'm already feeling down about it because it all felt so good, so need to get this sorted before I inadvertently cripple myself! There are 2 physios in my area, one of which is away until mid July and I left a message with the other (so may or may not be able to get an appointment soon).

Also, is there a beginner's guide to everything I need to know about starting and the early stages of minimalist running? I have lots of questions that probably seem really basic, eg how do I know when it's OK to start running again after an injury? Strengthening exercises - which/ how many/how often/on the running days or rest days? The majority of the info I've found online still leaves me wondering, eg it'll tell me what exercises, maybe even how many reps, but not how often each week to do them or how to incorporate them into my running plan. Ditto stretching (I've only been stretching immediately after running). For all the hours of research I've done I still don't have a simple and clear plan in my head and I'd love to have one.

Sorry this has turned into a rather long 2 topic post hasn't it; should I post the injury bit in "Ask the docs" instead?

Thanks. Beth.
 
Hi LillyBeth, it does sound like you may have overdone it. Using the vff's is really easy to overdo it and hurt yourself, but it can be done as there are lot's of people who do it. Personally, I wouldn't follow a set program right now because you are following what the program tells you, not what your body tells you. When making the transition the single most important aspect is learning to listen to your body. This is not an easy task as we have all been taught to ignore these cues or, maybe not necessarily taught intentionally, but unintentionally. I am 2 1/2 years in and am still learning to listen to my body. Also, you said you rolled your ankle, to me that is a huge sign that your lower legs and possibly feet are still really weak. As far as exercises, I am not sure what to advise you, but I do a lot of the same exercises you mentioned and as far as reps and what not I think is up to the individual. Stretching, well, that's kind of a heated topic at times here. I had been a stretcher and then on some advice I tried not stretching and just rolling my legs out on a foam roller. Bad idea, for me. I developed knots and ended up getting plantar fasciitis and achilles tendonitis which took me a year and a half to figure out. I do a mild stretch before the run (read extremely mild, only 3 stretches per leg) and then I do an only slightly more intensive stretching afterwards along with using a tennis ball or softball to work out some knots in my legs. I have found that working the knots out of my legs is one of the most important things for me to do in order to keep me injury free. I would strongly advise looking online for some videos of myofascial release for the legs. The one that helped me the most recently is attached here. I will do this stuff she shows here down low on the leg, by the achilles, and on the sides and then along the inside of the shin. Doing this stuff has helped me nearly as much as just learning to listen to my bodies cues.


As far as resources or material to help guide you on your transition, I think Jason Robillard has a good book and Barefoot Ken Bob Saxton has a good book as well. I also think Michael Sandler has material too that is supposed to be good, but I have not seen that stuff myself. Hope this helps some and good luck on your transition.
 
Thanks Nick :) . I was starting to think that the C25K plan, although I really like it, will take me at least twice as long to complete compared to if I was wearing "normal" running shoes. It's ironic that where I turned my ankle was in a field that I was only in to get off the road and give my shins a break as the left one was very slightly sore one week (it's now fine, thankfully). The field looked like it would be bliss - it was ploughed for potatoes so had lovely furrows along it - but it was a nightmare; it was a mixture of hard lumps in soft soil, so pretty unstable and changeable. Although I didn't feel an injury happen then I did think at the time that my ankles might not like it. My Tuesday runs were on a nice flat manicured grassy park, which was far nicer, and my Thursday and Sunday runs were on an undulating tarmac lane.

I'll certainly give the myofascial release a go, thanks. Good news is the physio called me back and said she could see me on Tuesday afternoon, so I'll report back with her verdict...unless of course she thinks euthanasia is the kindest thing for me ;)
 
Sounds good. Also, just an idea to keep in mind, About a month and a half or so ago after me getting a mri (which showed no defects or problems) and having been in a year and a half of pain from the plantar fasciitis and achilles tendonitis and seeing 3 different doctors (1 that a month and a half ago wanted to chop up my ankle muscle and heel bone) and 1 physical therapist, I found the answer myself which was that video I linked above. I think a lot of drs and physical therapists discount how much good you can do yourself with just working out the knots on your own with doing myofascial release. I think a lot of them have been taught that if the muscle is weak and in pain it must need a supportive shoe, an orthotic, or worse yet, surgery to correct the problem. I'm not all antishoe or anti orthotics (I run in luna sandals and haven't run barefoot in a month or so), I just think there is a time for orthotics or supportive shoes, such as in the case of an injury and you need to immobilize the foot in order for it to heal.
 
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Thanks Nick :) . I was starting to think that the C25K plan, although I really like it, will take me at least twice as long to complete compared to if I was wearing "normal" running shoes. It's ironic that where I turned my ankle was in a field that I was only in to get off the road and give my shins a break as the left one was very slightly sore one week (it's now fine, thankfully). The field looked like it would be bliss - it was ploughed for potatoes so had lovely furrows along it - but it was a nightmare; it was a mixture of hard lumps in soft soil, so pretty unstable and changeable. Although I didn't feel an injury happen then I did think at the time that my ankles might not like it. My Tuesday runs were on a nice flat manicured grassy park, which was far nicer, and my Thursday and Sunday runs were on an undulating tarmac lane.

I'll certainly give the myofascial release a go, thanks. Good news is the physio called me back and said she could see me on Tuesday afternoon, so I'll report back with her verdict...unless of course she thinks euthanasia is the kindest thing for me ;)

don't underestimate what that kind of material can do.
i once had a run on horribly mashed, half iced, half melted, ridged, walked over city sidewalk snow that started about 1 ft and never cleared. It seems similar to the texture you describe.
I did a long run on that surface cuz by golly that was my long run day. i was out about 3.5 weeks with sore feet. I had been up to 30+ miles running/wk before that and had run on snow before, and some soft surfaces, but nothing like that. Every step was a workout.
 
Also, doing 12 mile walks? whoa. That seems like quite a distance (what was your mileage per week?) after starting in march, if you were beginning from not being used to walks that long? What kind of shape were you in when you started this?
 
I think Nick is spot on with what he said above, just go by how you feel and don't stick to a schedule, or use the schedule but spread it out more and make it much more gradual.

I was reading Eric Ortons' new book recently and he mentioned doing stability exercises on a slant board and a wobble board. I ordered a cheap wobble board from Amazon and even just balancing on it for a couple of minutes highlights how weak all of the stabilising muscles in my feet are (even after loads of trail running).

I've started spending a few minutes on it a couple of times a day (I keep it in the kitchen so I stand on it when I'm waiting for the kettle to boil, or am preparing a salad etc.) and I'm sure it's helping after only a week or two.

I expect everyone tries to do too much too soon (as it's a lot of fun). I'd built up to doing probably 25+ miles a week in a mixture of minimal/normal shoes and ended up getting really bad plantar faciitus in both feet, one cleared up when I dropped the mileage but the other refused to heal. I decided to take a couple of weeks off running, then start again from scratch only doing short 2-3 mile runs two or three times a week in either Luna's or VFFs, as I became convinced my problems were coming from my form deteriorating towards the end of longer runs and me not feeling it due to running in padded shoes. With barefoot/Lunas/VFFs you feel any changes in form immediately, and as soon as I feel any pain whatsoever I stop and walk rather than trying to achieve a particular distance.

My pivotal moment came when I decided to not enter any more races (for a while at least), and scrap all of my distance targets, and just run in barefoot/Lunas/VFFs and go by feel entirely.
 
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don't underestimate what that kind of material can do.

i once had a run on horribly mashed, half iced, half melted, ridged, walked over city sidewalk snow that started about 1 ft and never cleared. It seems similar to the texture you describe.

I did a long run on that surface cuz by golly that was my long run day. i was out about 3.5 weeks with sore feet. I had been up to 30+ miles running/wk before that and had run on snow before, and some soft surfaces, but nothing like that. Every step was a workout.

Thanks for your input. My point was that, in hindsight, perhaps it was too much of a workout for me at this early stage in my training; it looked like the sort of terrain that would be nice for me to run on but the looseness of it (mixed with the hidden fist-sized hard lumps) meant it was a hell of a workout because every footstep was different and it moved underfoot.

Also, doing 12 mile walks? whoa. That seems like quite a distance (what was your mileage per week?) after starting in march, if you were beginning from not being used to walks that long? What kind of shape were you in when you started this?

When I started I was already fairly fit but used to wearing walking boots when hiking. I was used to going out once per week for an 8-9 miler plus walking the dog daily for 2.5 miles. When I got my VFFs I just used them for walking the dog (on road) until I felt OK with that, then wore them on a short hike. I tried listening to my body, and I thought it was telling me it was happy with progressing. I did 2x12 mile hikes and felt fine so started the C25K plan. Do you think I should forget the running at the moment and just concentrate on hiking and strengthening exercises? I really don't know what I should do.

P.S. Love your avatar! (I adore frogs :))
 
Thanks Vampire. Glad you mentioned the wobble board as I've just bought one ready to use when my ankle is OK; they look a lot of fun (so a danger of TMTS with that too! LOL)

I've got my head around the fact that I will not be running my planned 5K race in 3 weeks (there are always other races, eh) and that if I really have to rein things in it's not the end of the world.

The C25K schedule suited me in the respect that I need very clear goals to aim towards, I like to be told by either a person or a gadget when to stop and start, but appreciate that it was designed with shod runners in mind rather than minimalist or BFers. I've since found an old thread here that suggested that running with shod runners wasn't always the most suitable as their cadence is slower and people have a tendency to match who they're with. Well, once a week I was running with a shod runner and I was sometimes finding it a bit awkward, mainly because my quicker cadence meant I was naturally faster and trying to slow down caused my cadence to drop; I already felt my stride was tiny so struggled to decrease that. But I'm not yet fit enough to go that fast for long, and when I got tired but still had the time target to reach I noticed I lost my form a couple of times. So I think you're right, I have to do it at my pace.

Eric Orton's book, was it "The Cool Impossible"? Would you say it's a must read?
 
Eric Orton's book, was it "The Cool Impossible"? Would you say it's a must read?

Well based on the first couple of chapters yes I thought it looks good, though I must admit I haven't read any more of it as I'm trying to finish speed-reading the 'Wheel of Time' books by Robert Jordan at the moment! :embarrassed:

Eric certainly seemed to sort out Christopher McDougall's running in 'Born to Run' so he sounds like he knows his subject.

Yeah I never had that issue with matching cadences with other runners, but I've heard others say the same. I was always a bit of a loner so when I did C25K I did it on my own completely. I'm sure it must be possible to co-exist though, I know you can slow your pace down if you concentrate enough on doing it.
 
Orton has a good book. start with the strength training. don't be afraid to ditch your shoes. bare feet tell you when you've gone to far and can react to changes in the ground a lot faster. stay off grass and out of fields. run on concrete and hard surfaces. your ankles obviously aren't strong enough for the varied terrain plus the hard surface makes it easier to run and see anything you don't want to step on. good luck and learn to trust yourself.
 
I think you perhaps could stick with your 5K if you've already paid for it. It's not that far and nobody said you have to do it hard. Also, it could well be all on paved surfaces, and so would be an easy on your ankles exercise.

I found that most of my aches and pains were much relieved when I got into the rolling / release sort of muscle work. The process of building strength in my calves and ankles made for a lot of stiff and sore mornings. I remember the phase of judging how a run went by how long it took my anlkes to loosen up the following morning. I found that the device called "the Stick" worked well for me. Here's a link, I think:

https://www.thestick.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=SG-1900

"Listening to your body" means that you will hear some complaining. I don't believe anyone gets through it all without some twinges. Most of the books don't mention that.
 
Thanks for the tips, Migangelo :) . I've ordered Eric Orton's book and am looking forward to following his training plan. I think I'll get myself a pair of flip-flops so I can dip in and out of BFing; I'm not quite ready mentally to be labelled a weirdo round here (they're rather traditional folk here in the country :rolleyes:) by being spotted without shoes. But the more I read this forum the less I care what people might think though.



Just back from the physio and it's only a set back rather than anything serious luckily :joyful: . She reckons I have a peroneal tendon/muscle strain, so an overuse injury, and has given me the following "home work" to do:

No running for 7-10 days, then I should only start running again once I can walk with no pain.

Ice the area 3 times a day for 10 minutes each time. Do this until the pain and odd sensation have gone.

Using a resistance band around the bottom of my foot, at 45% tension, turn the foot inwards 10 times. 3 sets, once a day. Repeat but turing the foot outwards.

Calf raises/achilles stretch on a step, lifting up with the OK leg but coming down with the injured one. Do this 15 times with the leg straight then 15 times with the knee slightly bent, twice a day for the first few days. Increase to 2 sets for the following few days, then to 3 sets after a week. I need to do this for 12 weeks, then twice a week until pain free (although I hope to be pain free before 12 weeks!)

Balance on my wobble board for 5 minutes per day doing various silly things. I need to check this though as I thought she'd said twice a day but has written once a day. Personally I'd like to play...I mean do physio...on it for 30 minutes twice a day! ;)
 
I think you perhaps could stick with your 5K if you've already paid for it...

I found that most of my aches and pains were much relieved when I got into the rolling / release sort of muscle work.
https://www.thestick.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=SG-1900

Thanks for the advice, Joseph :). Do you think the same effect could be achieved by using a rolling pin or a broom handle as the stick?
Luckily I've not paid for the 5k race yet so can play it by ear whether I go or not in 3 weeks. I don't think I'll be ready as I have to have 7-10 days of no running and then go back a couple of weeks in the training when I start again. However, it's taking place on a level race course so I imagine it would be nice under foot. We'll see.
 
Just back from the physio and it's only a set back rather than anything serious luckily :joyful: . She reckons I have a peroneal tendon/muscle strain, so an overuse injury, and has given me the following "home work" to do:
That's great news LillyBeth! I had been having peroneal tendon problems a month and a half ago and that video I linked up above helped me get rid of it quicker than snot. It's amazing how much looser my legs feel after doing these. Please do give it a shot and hopefully it can help you as much as it did me.
 
:). Do you think the same effect could be achieved by using a rolling pin or a broom handle as the stick?
quote]

No. Use something that will move more. A tennis ball or some such works. I've seen people use tinned veg cans. You will be happier doing any kind of good muscle spot work than with any sort of stretching, imo. There are tons of "how to" videos on the web. Nick's KIA lady seems to be a very good intro. Do your homework and your hands-on work, then get running again!
 
rolling pin works fine along with a softball, lacrosse, baseball. tennis balls are a bit too soft. a firmer ball will work your muscles that deep. i myself use a large pvc pipe to roll my legs out instead of "the stick" or a foam roller. they're cheap and available at a hardware store. they also say flip flops aren't good to wear as they will overwork your extensors trying to keep it on while you walk. adding stress to muscles you already have stressed and creating hammer toes. get sandals with a strap if you feel the need and forget about racing until you learn to run properly. good luck and have fun.
 
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...don't add the extra stress about missing a run, or HAVE to run on this day...
...It took me a good full year until I felt confidently strong with my new way of running...I knew this wasn't going to happen over night....
Like Migangelo already said forget about racing right now. Plan a race a year from now.

You're right. I'm a bit gung-ho and impatient by nature when it comes to physical things, but during the past week I've had to get my head around the fact that I need to take things slower or I'll get injured. There will be another race I can do next year if I fancy, and it's not the end of the world if I can't run 3 times a week at the moment like I'd hoped. If I continue with the C25K plan it will take me longer because I won't progress through the stages as quickly as I might do if I had supportive shoes (just having a quicker cadence than before is tiring enough at the mo too, LOL!) and I'll possibly need more rest days too. Plus, and I hate this, I'm not 28 like I was when I ran 10K races before, I'm the wrong side of 40 and this might have an impact too.

...they also say flip flops aren't good to wear as they will overwork your extensors trying to keep it on while you walk...
You're right, they aren't good. I suppose I'm thinking, as they are very quick and easy to get on and off and easy to carry, that I'd only wear them if I saw someone approaching me when I was BF and I suddenly felt too self-conscious to go shoeless.

LB, with all this great advice you should be feeling better already! I hope we've helped.
Absolutely! You've all been great, thanks :)
 
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Hi, Lilybeth - I just started a c25k as well, but have had to step back after developing a sharp pain in one foot. I didn't feel like I was overdoing it, but obviously my foot disagreed. I do think that using the app maybe encouraged me to do a bit more that maybe I would have left to myself. I'm going back to walking for a bit.
I really like the VFFs for walking but I definitely run a bit more naturally without them. I think my toes aren't strong enough yet to flex quite as well against the strengthof the rubber sole.