"Barefoot" Running "Shoes"

it's really not that big of a deal.. get of the pedestal of "hi I'm Rickey bobby and if you don't run barefoot, then f@$k you" just accept that not all people are up to date with the barefoot thing. hell, most of the people you get that from probably don't even run. getting mad at someone because they ask to clarify with toe shoes or barefoot is hardly a response that will attract more barefooters... let go of the smug and run for the joy if it rather than the image of being a barefoot runner. it's like people who drive a Prius, they have to slow down the fast lane so everyone else know they drive a Prius. meanwhile I drive a car that gets better city mpg and nearly the same highway mpg but I don't try to rub it in your face that I'm going green (I'm not a greener,btw) but I have that car so I can afford more guns and ammo and not waste it in gas. ok.. rant over. what I'm trying to say is if you are running barefoot for the image, then you are a fool. dilligaf what others think? no. I run because I like it...
 
bs40 must have read some postings I somehow missed. Anyone else see the attitude he describes being displayed by any BRS members? Or is it just bs from bs40?
 
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bs40 must have read some postings I somehow missed. Anyone else see the attitude he describes being displayed by any BRS members? Or is it just bs from bs40?

No, I think you're right, Board. I noticed the same thing but was going to let it slide. Seems to be raging against the voices in his head...
 
there were a few references of people getting mad, angry or annoyed at the barefoot shoe term. perhaps I took it out of context and over reacted but the message I was putting out holds true. run for the joy of it and let others do what they may, as long as it doesn't affect you. I wasn't trying to step on anyone's toes or anything, but I thought I caught a whiff of elitist I'm better than you in the air, and for me it's like a shark and blood in the water. also, to respond to the post about running barefoot style in what I call clown shoes, I don't feel it is the same at all. wearing something that thick totally removes you from the sensory input you would receive without shoes or even in vff's. I personally think running in minimals or vff is superior because I can go running and totally lose myself in the run and not have to put myself in crewchief mode scanning for hazards like a piece of glass or that lone pointy rock just above ground. I run to relax, and hate stepping on glass.
 
I never said anything about being a purist. Hell, anyone that knows me, on here included, knows I wear shoes a lot. Minshoes is what I wear. I refuse to call them "barefoot shoes". That term is what I take offense to blacksheep40, not people running in minshoes. I run in minshoes pretty frequently so it may be a bit hypocritical of me don't you think, to rail against people for wearing minshoes? I haven't looked all the way back in this post but I don't think anyone said anything about anyone running in minshoes. That came out of your own imagination I think. Those of us that hate that term, it's exactly that, we hate the term. Most purists that I know even wear minshoes depending on the conditions. Why would they rail against minshoes if they wear them from time to time???
 
Personally I've never met a barefoot runner with an elitist attitude. I do regularly encounter shod runners that think that way, including many running store staff. They mock barefoot running, one manager even told me that he could run an ultra barefoot if he wanted to even though he has never even run barefoot! He said it's just stupid not to use shoes, and that barefooters are too ignorant to realize that the correct shoe is better than barefoot.
I saw Ken Bob Saxton Tuesday in the Detroit area. He was just like he was when I saw him around these parts three years ago before he wrote his book. A classic example of someone that wants to make running fun, enjoyable, and relaxing. He says....and I believe it.....that no shoe with a sole of any type will ever give the feedback necessary to properly learn and maintain barefoot form. In his book he has a table showing the ranking of barefoot-likeness of different shoes and/or socks, in this order:
Best to worse as far as the necessary feedback being provided:
10 Barefoot
9 paper medical booties
8.5 thin socks
7.5 thick socks
7 Pose and Chi technique in Vibrams
6 Pose and Chi technique in shoes
5 Plasti-Dip socks
4 Vibrams and other minimalist footwear
3 .5 Vibrams with Injinjis
3 racing flats
2 Nike Free
1 Cushioned running shoes
0 Army Boots

Hope I didn't violate any copyright laws.

Reminds me of Richard's IBRD '13 story when she pulled off her boots and socks and paced her soldier for the PT test.....from one extreme to another!

No, I've never detected elitism among barefooters, just an interest in pointing out scientific as well as anecdotal evidence that barefoot running style cannot be learned in any type of footwear, and that for most people the transition should be from shoes to barefoot, and then to minimalist shoes for a portion of their runs if desired after barefoot style has been learned.
 
perhaps I took it out of context and over reacted but the message I was putting out holds true. run for the joy of it and let others do what they may, as long as it doesn't affect you.
I forgot to mention it does affect us too when misleading terms are used. Drs for one, media for two, then family and friends, all will propagate misinformation because a wrong term was used and a dr only hears "barefoot" and then when he gets asked about barefoot running by the media he/she has a lot of bad things to report about barefoot running. Then the media goes off and writes a bad article about barefoot running (look at the Oregonian for articles like this) which then family and media develop a bias against it and get after you and tell you how bad and dangerous it is, and then they use that article as "evidence" against you. So, ya, it does affect us.
 
i can run bf and not worry about glass, rocks, or anything else. i can get in the zone and just go. your fears are more in your mind. lose the shoes, free your feet, free your mind. the child inside is waiting to get out and play.
 
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"hi I'm Rickey bobby and if you don't run barefoot, then f@$k you" just accept that not all people are up to date with the barefoot thing...

I think your barefeet running card should be temporarily revoked for misquoting the greatest driver ever...you will have to answer to the Magic Man to get it back.:D
 
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I wasn't trying to step on anyone's toes or anything, but I thought I caught a whiff of elitist I'm better than you in the air, and for me it's like a shark and blood in the water.

Meaning you swim around all day looking for it. And in life, we generally find what we seek, even if it means projecting our own biases on what we find. By the way, sweeping, baseless conclusions about groups of people are generally a sign of... taa daaa! elitism. So maybe take a look at that. Just saying.

Where I wrote that the term "barefoot shoes" is annoying, it wasn't from some 'elitist' POV. It's simply misleading and actually causes real problems for people when they expect to get the benefits of real barefooting but don't understand that they have to do it with bare feet. Time and again we see articles about this or another "barefoot running" study only to discover that the subjects were in fact wearing foot coverings. And the results are therefore not relevant to barefooting at all.
 
If you are a heel striking shod runner transitioning to VFF's you will most likely continue to to run with the same or similar form. Since your muscles and bones will be weak from the support you are used to you will be at high risk for stress fractures of the metatarsals now that the support and cushioning is gone.
If you run with good form already you would have no problems.
Many people transition because they are having problems and think that minimalist shoes will correct poor form that they believe is causing their problems. They won't.
Sales of minimalist shoes are no longer growing, because those that went to them skipping the barefoot training stage altogether have ended up with worse problems.
Calling them "barefoot" gives barefoot running the same bad rap.
 
Yes, and Dr. Lieberman's work at Harvard confirms this
 
Blacksheep40, I think what LB is saying, basically and simply, vffs allow one to do more than being barefoot would allow at that particular stage of your transition, which increases the risk of doing too much too soon. We have seen a lot of that, many of us in fact have had injuries ourselves from doing too much too soon from wearing minshoes.
 
Nick is correct, but there are other drawbacks as well.
Even with the 2mm sole of a Vibram FF, the sensors on the plantar surface of the foot are not functioning properly, so true barefoot form is never achieved for the majority of people.
Ken Bob says that once you have trained barefoot if you do more than 25% of your running in minimalist shoes you will lose some of the true barefoot form.
He showed a photo of himself at Dr. Lieberman's Harvard lab taken over three years ago, and I asked him what the Dr. is studying now since the data has all been confirmed repeatedly. He says that as a true scientist, he is working on continuing to quantify the data as pure indisputable scientific proof that no researcher could argue with.
Ken Bob said that as a real scientist he must do so, unlike people like himself who just anecdotaly know.
 
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so what are these benefits I can't get while wearing my vff's?

On the purely biomechanical side I think you can achieve quite a bit with your vff's. You start engaging the lower legs and feet to some extent, and possibly iron out some form issues e. g. overstriding. Possibly.

But it's also possible to feel a false sense of security when you don't get the sensory feedback we get with bare feet and that often leads to problems. And as board said, it's a shoe problem.

Skin to ground bypasses all the risk and guesswork. You don't have a choice but to do it right the first time. Well, maybe the second time, but however you slice it, there is no substitute for skin to ground.
 
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BS40, had to add in that 40 otherwise, ha! that 2-4mm of rubber give you a false sense of security. it's easier to hurt yourself with them than going bf. sometimes you need to don some rubber, otherwise bare is best. :cool: