Geoff Roes Goes Off on Minimalist and BF Ultra Running

If I recall correctly, he's

If I recall correctly, he's concerned with what you need to wear when running to win a 100 mile ultra. Minimalist shoes don't force you to land lightly--at least not enough. Wearing them takes a great deal of self control. Using feedback alone in those first comfortable hours is not sufficient to prevent you from slowing down a great deal due to tender feet later in the race. Without sufficient protection from rocks and roots you won't be able to run at all close to your best pace.



I've learned the hard way. Unless I can train on the course, I'm going to err on the side of caution from now on and wear something with a fairly thick sole. After training hard for a race and paying for registration and travel, finishing poorly or dropping out due to footwear isn't very much fun.

Barefoot TJ wrote:A BRS

Barefoot TJ said:

A BRS thong. ;-)

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I'm sorry. But the thong needs to be modeled TJ.

LavaRunner wrote:Barefoot TJ

LavaRunner said:

Barefoot TJ said:

A BRS thong. ;-)

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I'm sorry. But the thong needs to be modeled TJ.

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By all means, send me a large! Or a medium if you want it to be a little "Risque".....

Barefoot TJ wrote:Yes, by

Barefoot TJ said:

Yes, by all means, please model it for us, Lava.

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Sigh... :tired: Not exactly what I had in mind.

Big head, TJ?  Here's my

Big head, TJ?

Here's my "been there, done that" perspective... though not at Roes' pace. Some ultras can be run barefoot. Some can be run in very minimal shoes. Others can be run in minimal shoes with more protection. Many 100s, especially those in the mountains, are difficult if not close to impossible with minimal shoes. I've run a 50 barefoot (in MI), a third of a 100 barefoot and 2/3 in huaraches (Burning River), a 100 in KSOs Hallucination), and a 100 in Trail Gloves (Western States). I DNFed Grindstone in Trail Gloves.

My footwear choices were good for all except Grindstone. The other three weren't really "crazy technical." The trails and limited visibility (leaf covered in darkness) at Grindstone required more protection than the Trail Gloves could offer. My feet were toast after 52ish miles.

I've also spent the last eight months traveling around the US running as many trails as possible. In ideal conditions (daylight, no fatigue, clear trails) pretty much anything can be run in minimalist shoes. If you add a fast pace, darkness, or obscured trails, your feet will get beat to Hell. There's a reason nobody has run a 100 barefoot yet... it's brutal.

Having said that, there is a proprioception penalty to more maximal shoes (as several of you have noted.) For those of us that rely on feedback to maintain form, it presents a dilemma. I haven't quite resolved that issue yet, though I believe the right shoe (that has not been produced yet) will go a long way toward solving that problem.

As a Midwesterner, I used to have an inflated sense of my own abilities. I ran trails barefoot all the time and had run a 50 without shoes. I just assumed Krupicka was a bit of a wussy for needing to wear the MT100s instead of the Minimus Trails. Funny how experience changes that. After running parts of many of the difficult ultra courses, I can honestly say Tony's a complete stud. I've tried bombing down Green Mtn. at his pace, and it seriously beat me up. After actually trying to run on truly gnarly trails, I'm sufficiently humbled.

I've talked to most of the dudes that have actually run 100s in minimal shoes (Ragsdale, Rustvold, MacDonald, etc.) and we've all pretty much came to the same conclusion Roes has. It's easy to use our rationale to dismiss his opinion, but I'm guessing most of us don't run at his pace, run 100s, or run trails that are actually technical. If you're going to be competitive or run one of the tough 100s, you need more than most minimal shoes offer today.

Thanks for the response

Thanks for the response Jason, Your experience can serve us all. and when you find that perfect shoe, let us know.

I am looking for something like the trail glove but a little more padding and traction as a fallback. The heel construction in the trail glove is what I like most. Tight fit and very little structures of metal or plastic, it gives and forms. I really like my inov8 Roclites but the heel gives me blisters. The best shoe might be a bastard child of the two.

TJ, thanks again, I forget how good I look in a thong

LavaRunner wrote:Thanks for

LavaRunner said:

Thanks for the response Jason, Your experience can serve us all. and when you find that perfect shoe, let us know.

I am looking for something like the trail glove but a little more padding and traction as a fallback. The heel construction in the trail glove is what I like most. Tight fit and very little structures of metal or plastic, it gives and forms. I really like my inov8 Roclites but the heel gives me blisters. The best shoe might be a bastard child of the two.

TJ, thanks again, I forget how good I look in a thong

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So far, i've tried every minimalist trail shoe except the Vivo Neo Trail... nothing seems to perfectly capture the qualities needed for rugged trails. I think Trail Gloves would be close to the ideal if they had a true rock plate extending the length of the sole. I'm working on convincing Merrell to make it.



BTW- that is a pretty sexy thong pic.

Last Place Jason wrote:So

Last Place Jason said:

So far, i've tried every minimalist trail shoe except the Vivo Neo Trail... nothing seems to perfectly capture the qualities needed for rugged trails. I think Trail Gloves would be close to the ideal if they had a true rock plate extending the length of the sole. I'm working on convincing Merrell to make it.

BTW- that is a pretty sexy thong pic.

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I tried making my own Heavy Duty rockplate by cutting up some Flexible Cutting Board

I'll be damned if I wasn't slipping and sliding all over the place inside the shoes but it did seem to work especially with the roots and pointy suprises under the leaves but I needed more stability Maybe gluing them in and covering them would have worked but then there would be no room for feet.

The TG has really grown on me and is by far my favorite shoe. Running the Stone Mill 50 I was happy feet, just not happy knees. You mentioned earlier how a slight drop messes with your knees, I think trying out the Saucony ProGrid Xodus 2.0 did my knees in. I need that feedback or my form goes down the toilet. The saucony's were like wearing marshmallows and I was numb. 5 or 6 runs in them and the knee was in trouble.

I almost hate to ask but... Have you checked out the {I am hiding under my desk} Sketchers GoRun? I have heard some good things about them.

Oh, and I was trying to get TJ to model that damn thong, Look what she went and did, put it on me. I really doubt sales have gone through the roof. Well, Except Chaser, You know he went and bought one after seeing me in it.

I tried making my own Heavy

I tried making my own Heavy Duty rockplate by cutting up some Flexible Cutting Board

I'll be damned if I wasn't slipping and sliding all over the place inside the shoes but it did seem to work especially with the roots and pointy suprises under the leaves but I needed more stability Maybe gluing them in and covering them would have worked but then there would be no room for feet.

The TG has really grown on me and is by far my favorite shoe. Running the Stone Mill 50 I was happy feet, just not happy knees. You mentioned earlier how a slight drop messes with your knees, I think trying out the Saucony ProGrid Xodus 2.0 did my knees in. I need that feedback or my form goes down the toilet. The saucony's were like wearing marshmallows and I was numb. 5 or 6 runs in them and the knee was in trouble.

I almost hate to ask but... Have you checked out the {I am hiding under my desk} Sketchers GoRun? I have heard some good things about them.

Oh, and I was trying to get TJ to model that damn thong, Look what she went and did, put it on me. I really doubt sales have gone through the roof. Well, Except Chaser, You know he went and bought one after seeing me in it.

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Ha! I tried the same cutting board trick! I also used plastic from a Rubbermiad storage container. It was thinner and worked a little better.

I hear ya about needing feedback. I haven't tried the Sketchers, but the cushioning was pretty soft. I'm testing ther Merrell Bare Access right now. They're the best I've tried. The cushioning is stiffer... sort of like Hokas. I wouldn't use them as an everyday shoe, but may end up as my preferred mountain shoes.

The NB 1010s may be okay, but they're not due to be released until July.

Lava, stop drinking the

Lava, stop drinking the Bourbon(feet) and start drinking the Kool-Aid again... It will all be OK!

And I didnt buy just one thong, thank you! By the way, that pic cant be printed larger than a 11x17 or else its too pixelated...

I agree that on the more technical and rocky trails more protection is needed, but I dont know for sure that on a course like Rocky Racoon it would be necessary. Of course I havent ran the course yet, Im just throwing it out as the example since others who have ran it are in agreance that its possiblle to run it unshod.

Dont judge me...

Dont judge me...

Jason, don't get your hopes

Jason, don't get your hopes up for the Neo Trails. If they're anything like the Off Roads, and the sole appears to be the same, they're way too narrow (I have the same size feet you have and I tend to agree with you on fit) even though the traction is great on anything but pure ice. Also, the sole in between the studs is crazy thin and way too flexible for technical terrain. Other than that, I believe they're a great shoe.

As for Geoff, I kinda agree with him. My principle for picking footwear is to use the most minimal solution possible. If I had the fitness to run at his pace for a 100 I think it would be kind of stupid to try it barefoot. At my snail's pace though, it's another story. And even at my pace there are conditions where I put on shoes and/or wish I had something more substantial than my Merrells.

looks pretty cush