The "M-word" again

chuckcwall

chuckcwall

Barefooters
Jul 14, 2011
45
18
8
#1
I liked Robbi's post where she referred to Maffetone stuff as "the M-word." Also, this post may read as if I'm just writing to complain, but that is not my intent.

So, I've been trying Maffetone with the 180-age training, refraining from speed work, etc, for almost 8 months now. During this period: I've been taking plenty of rest as needed, I've been "fine-tuning" other aspects of my life, particularly diet (dropping wheat and going mostly paleo), and I've made efforts to address stress and sleep issues. I feel generally healthy and not overtrained. Not only have I not gotten faster, I've gotten slower, going from 14:00 min/mile to 15:28 min/mile on the MAF test at constant heart rate (138 bpm). I feel like 8 months should have been long enough to see some improvement and to develop my aerobic base. I also feel that these results are not just measurement error or random error, even though nothing about this is well-replicated.

So, wisdom of the crowd, what's going on?
1) I'm "doing it wrong" in some way.
2) I'm doing it "right," but my body is just not responding to this type of training.
3) ?????

Are there any "lapsed Maffetonics" out there who have had the same issue?

Stray observations:
  • While running at what feels like constant effort on flat ground, my heart rate (according to the HR monitor) will race ahead 10 or even 20 bpm above the supposed max aerobic heart rate. Then it takes forever to come back down, even when I stop and walk.
  • Heart rates as different as 125, 135, and 145 bpm all feel like the same speed and effort to me.
Thanks everyone!
 
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#3
Distances are short, time spent running is 30-60 min at a stretch, 3-5 days a week. Occasionally a whole week off when I've felt tired, sick, or the Achilles tendon feels twitchy.
 
#4
1) you did it wrong.

it appears you didn't read the book. the longest he suggests is 6 months of pure aerobic work. depending on what your maf tests tell you. going that long i take it you didn't apply the tests either. don't worry you can remedy it.

as simple as it should be it's still easy to mess up. i did the tests, ignored them, twice, and raced when i shouldn't have. completely blew the base i had built up and am starting from scratch, again. i know it works so i don't mind. it's good to take a break which is what i'm doing to try to give my body a rest. too bad i didn't do it during my winter break.

reading the book a few times will help make it clearer. then posting, questioning, doing, reading, failing, quitting, restarting, crying, reading, questioning, posting, and reading again will help to make it clearer.
 
#5
Mike,
Thanks for your input--I have read the Maffetone and Sock-Doc websites extensively, but I do admit to not reading the book. I did do the MAF test regularly, and the results were just flat every month or getting slower. As in I never got faster at the same heart rate, even though all my training was low and slow--no speed work, no races, etc, and "other life factors" like diet, sleep, stress, were improving. My understanding of the training method is that I should have seen some improvement in mile times while running at the max aerobic heart rate. So... time for some tempo runs and intervals?
 
#6
going flat or rising times in the maf test is when it's time to switch phases. from aerobic to anaerobic and vice versa. he gave a specific protocol for doing too much aerobic. can't remember what it is because i was only able to skim the books and therefore have struggled also. well that was probably more from over racing and being over stressed.

go to the library and check out the book. you may have to wait. his site is good but not the same as the book. any of his books i believe talks about the 180 method but the big book is the most detailed. the forum compliments it.

don't follow advice from the internet. get the book. borrow it or what ever. it's not a difficult read.
 
#7
But you all don't take into consideration what kind of stress sex puts on your aerobic system do ya??? Ya, I thought not. Seriously, though, good stress is under-estimated, with regard to the Maff method - I think. So ya'll need to quit having a good time!!! :confused:
 
#8
I only followed Maff for about 3 months Chuck and I had the same experience as you only my times dropped(gained?) almost 5 min/mile. I do think there is benefit to the Maf stuff, like my distances really improved while doing it. Mike always says he runs Maf to run injury free, but while I was doing it I was just as injury prone as I am now (and I think this is the time period when I developed PF too actually). I think it really is up to the individual and what works for them. Now I do more tempo runs and only 1 slow easy longer day a week and it seems to work for me. Experiment and find what works for you. Mike is totally right in that when you flatten out or start slowing down it is time to change up your routine so don't be afraid to do that.
 
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#9
chuckcwall said:
So... time for some tempo runs and intervals?
Click to expand...
+1
migangelo said:
don't follow advice from the internet.
Click to expand...
Oops.
NickW said:
Mike always says he runs Maf to run injury free
Click to expand...
I am definitely more injury-prone running slow.
NickW said:
I think it really is up to the individual and what works for them. . . . Experiment and find what works for you.
Click to expand...
+1
NickW said:
Now I do more tempo runs and only 1 slow easy longer day a week and it seems to work for me.
Click to expand...
Most pros mix it up too, even during their base-building period.
 
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#11
I think MAF all depends on the individual and fitness capabilities. I still think if you want to run faster, you need to start running faster. Running fast does put a lot of stress on the body, so you need to start conditioning the body to handle that stress. I just don't get how running slow all the time, then deciding to run faster is healthy on the body. Running like that injuries will happen. I am a big fan of tempo runs, they work, and you only need to do them once a week.
 
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#12
I've skipped all the MAF threads, I don't understand it and I don't have the patience to learn it all. I am curious about the 14-15 min. pace. After 8 months I would think you'd have improved? Does this method really require you to run this slow? I am not knocking a slow pace at all, I just think that after 8 months of running you'd be able to "pick up the pace" a bit?
 
#13
What gets me about MAF is that the max heart rate is so limiting. According to MAF, a 56yr old like me that is as active as I am should have a max aerobic heart rate of 124 (180-56=124). Keeping within the 65 to 85% range has me between 81 and 105. This is nuts! I am a big believer in aerobic exercise, but it takes very little effort at all for me to get into the 81 to 105 range. My resting HR is 58-62. If I walk upstairs I am in the low 80's. It takes me about 50 yds at a 7mph pace to get my HR up to 100. Now either my HRM is way off (possible), or this program was designed to frustrate. I tried it for a month, then went back to the old 220-age (164 MHR) which makes a little more sense for me. It is easier for me to stay in the 107 to 139 range than in the narrower (and lower) MAF band.
 
#14
I've skipped all the MAF threads, I don't understand it and I don't have the patience to learn it all. I am curious about the 14-15 min. pace. After 8 months I would think you'd have improved? Does this method really require you to run this slow? I am not knocking a slow pace at all, I just think that after 8 months of running you'd be able to "pick up the pace" a bit?
Click to expand...
Much good advice given, thanks Nick, Bare Lee, BG, Ramzev, and others. I'm not fast by any means, but just to be clear, I can run much faster than 14-15 min/mile. That very slow pace is running at a constant heart rate of 180-age. So after 8 months, I do in fact feel like I could be running faster and further, but my pace at the constant heart rate has not improved.
 
#17
it does take patience to do the method. it also takes seeing it as a challenge. a big challenge. it's hard to not run fast. its an investment that takes diligence and time to see results. then it takes more patience and diligence to continue with your good results and not blow it by over training, like me. :)
 
#19
chuckcwall said:
Much good advice given, thanks Nick, Bare Lee, BG, Ramzev, and others. I'm not fast by any means, but just to be clear, I can run much faster than 14-15 min/mile. That very slow pace is running at a constant heart rate of 180-age. So after 8 months, I do in fact feel like I could be running faster and further, but my pace at the constant heart rate has not improved.
Click to expand...
I'm not anti-Maffetone method, but if you're finding it frustrating, I don't see any point in continuing. The science behind it is debatable, according to the little I've I read, and no pros follow it, like I said.

Your own body should tell you when you're running at a comfortable, sustainable pace, when you're at threshold, and when you're over threshold, running more anaerobically. These three feelings correspond to endurance, stamina, and speed/power training protocols.

For endurance, run long and steady, with your breathing easy enough that you could carry on a conversation if you were running with someone. For stamina, run comfortably hard tempo runs, or cruise intervals, pushing it a bit, so that you can only run about 50-60 percent of the distance you can run for your long, steady run. For speed/power, run fartleks, intervals, or hills.

Each type of run trains a different component of running fitness. Endurance focuses on your aerobic capacity. Stamina trains your body's ability to use lactate as fuel. Speed/power trains your neuromuscular system, recruiting maximal muscle fiber which, once it's used to being recruited, can then be utilized in the other type of runs, making you more efficient.

These types of runs can be periodized, but these days, most pros do at least a little of each of them throughout their training season, although at certain points they may focus more on one or the other. The Kenyans, for example, do 35-40 percent of their training with stamina-type running. Those guys are the best, so they probably know what they're doing. For myself, I like to do one of each type of run per week, or two endurance-type runs and one stamina or speed/power run.

But like Nick said, the best thing to do is be aware of all these different types of training protocols and figure out what is the most fun for you, and then out of the fun, figure out what works best for you according to your goals. Mike has found his bliss with Maffetone, I've found it with a mix. I don't see any reason to commit to a method that isn't fun for you, because if it isn't fun, you won't run consistently, and consistency is the biggest factor in improving, regardless of any particular protocol.
 
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#20
it's challenging. very challenging.

http://groups.google.com/group/huaraches/topics

this group is full of followers of the maf method. they have plenty of science to back it up, of course to bring it down. science is a bitch as it will go either way to the highest bidder. learning to read and dissect what science says is something everyone must do. it's being pushed on us like religion.

"Believe us. we're scientists. we know everything".

psh. give me a break. most of experiments run are so ludicrous. we don't live in a lab and you can't control all variables they attempt to do. you are the head scientist and test subject in your life. you're running an experiment of n=1.

as everyone says. read what others talk about but figure out what works for you. that's more important than joe blow got xyz results doing hiitgallowaydanielsmafsalazarlidyard method.
 
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