Optimal strength training for runners

What do you think about grip and shoulder health? I am beginning to think I tend to let the bar rest more on my fingers. I'm gonna tinker tonight.

http://startingstrength.com/articles/learning_press_rippetoe.pdf

Your grip

will have placed the bar on the heel of your palms,

and your elbows should now move to a position just

in front of the bar when viewed from the side. This

placement creates a vertical position for the radius

bone of the forearm. (Most people place the elbows

under or behind the bar, positions that tend to make

the bar drive away from the body when you press.)

Shrug your shoulders up and forward just a little;

the idea is to have the bar resting on top of your

anterior deltoids, the meaty part of your shoulders,

at the start of the movement.
Yah, Rippetoe's pointers seem to jibe with the comic's video, getting the elbows out in front at least a bit, although the comic endorsed a thumbless grip, which seems unsafe. I think the grip width for me is narrower than Rippetoe's depictions--probably something like 26-27 inches, but I agree it feels like the bar rests in the palm not on the fingers. Just as a narrower grip helps scrunch up the shoulders and provide a stable platform for the bar in the back squat, it seems like a narrower grip helps scrunch up the front of the body and shoulders/traps for a more stable launch of the overhead press. But I only tried this for the first time yesterday. It will take a while to make a fair assessment. I also like the idea of a neutral grip using dumbbells, for both the bench and overhead press, but I didn't do them yesterday because I'm trying to control for variables.

Here's another list of general tips. Seems to agree mostly with what we've seen, although Poliquin is oriented more towards hypertrophy: http://www.t-nation.com/article/most_recent/poliquins_top_20_tips
Heh, wouldn't a lifting belt act like a "crutch", kind of like shoes for your back? :p

I think we covered the belt issue on the early pages of this thread. I don't use a belt, or gloves, or straps, because I subscribe to the same 'naturalistic' stance in lifting as I do in barefoot running. But I'm not against them by any means, just as I'm not going to tell someone they can't wear sandals or shoes. If Abide says a belt has helped alleviate lower back soreness, that's great. I would use one too in that case.
 
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A belt is actually a very useful tool and not necessarily for the protective measures. Here you guys can read this he explains it pretty well, its a long read with all the parts

http://70sbig.com/?p=884?p=884
http://70sbig.com/?p=891?p=891
http://70sbig.com/blog/2010/04/more-reasons-for-wearing-a-belt/

I use a belt for squats and deadlifts once I get over body weight. It really helps you focus on creating a solid core, which leads to good form.

I should probably change that stance a bit. I don't really squat with a belt anymore (I don't really squat that much anymore either) and I usually only deadlift with one on my top weight for the day if its above 275 or so.

I think those things also affect my back soreness and bike riding to work bothers it too.
 
Wow, a blast from the past! I read through that exchange a bit. Sad to think I was around 210 a year and a half ago--245 this morning! One of these days I'll have to get ambitious and copy and paste this whole thread.

Had a nice six-mile run down by the river yesterday afternoon by the way. I think I'll have to take back what I said about not worrying anymore about possible interference between st and running. Wednesday's squats definitely made yesterday's run a little more challenging, especially in the beginning. Today I'm extremely sore. I'm at least another few weeks of regaining basic running fitness I guess, and it might be a month or two before the constant lower body st and alternating running days work things out amongst themselves.
 
Regarding the step-ups, my bench is 17 inches high so I'll start with that and see how it goes. Oh by the way, if you guys have equipment suggestion and what not, I'd be interested.

My current setup is extremely basic : a flat bench and spin lock dumbbells. I do expect to add a free standing pull up bar made out of plumbing pipe next week.
 
Regarding the step-ups, my bench is 17 inches high so I'll start with that and see how it goes. Oh by the way, if you guys have equipment suggestion and what not, I'd be interested.

My current setup is extremely basic : a flat bench and spin lock dumbbells.
Sid just does dumbbell exercises, go back a few pages to check out his routine.

For pure strength training, it helps to do bilateral--i.e. barbell--exercises so that balance and stability requirements don't take away from developing tension in the targeted muscles. It all really just depends on what your goals are, what kind of gym/health club membership you have, or what your budget is for putting together a home gym.

For me, the essential exercises are squat, deadlift, row, bench press, overhead press, and chinup. So you need a barbell, plates, some kind of rack, a bench, and a chinup bar. Everything else is gravy, but dumbbells, cables, and a dip station are really nice to have. If your chinup is weak, try assisted chinups with elastic bands, something like this: http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0064E1LB8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1.
 
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For chin ups, negatives have helped greatly in the past so I'll probably do that. I used to be able to do 8 in one set but that may not be that way anymore. If my girlfriend decides she wants to do some lifting, I'll give those elastic bands a shot though. She has serious issues with chin ups.

I like the barbell for deadlift, squats, bench press, though I'm also satisfied with doing bench press with dumbbells. I'll end up having to buy the barbell for the deadlift. I've heard good things about hex bars, have you ever tried it? My local gym never had any.

Oh I forgot to say I'm thinking of adding rings to the pull up bar for doing dips because..... I guess I just like dips.
 
For chin ups, negatives have helped greatly in the past so I'll probably do that. I used to be able to do 8 in one set but that may not be that way anymore. If my girlfriend decides she wants to do some lifting, I'll give those elastic bands a shot though. She has serious issues with chin ups.

I like the barbell for deadlift, squats, bench press, though I'm also satisfied with doing bench press with dumbbells. I'll end up having to buy the barbell for the deadlift. I've heard good things about hex bars, have you ever tried it? My local gym never had any.

Oh I forgot to say I'm thinking of adding rings to the pull up bar for doing dips because..... I guess I just like dips.
I'm about 40 pounds overweight right now, and have always neglected chinups in favor of pulldowns, so my chinups are weak. It was quite a revelation a few months ago when I read somewhere to try assisted chinups. They're so much better than pulldowns. It's great that you can already do unassisted chinups and have a bar.

Some of the top bodybuilders like doing the bench press with dumbbells. Lately I've been experimenting with them, because they afford a neutral grip. It's humbling. But, once again, there is a trade-off, because any alternative exercise that requires greater balance, stability, or coordination will interfere with your body's ability to express strength. That's something the functional fitness crowd fails to understand. Just depends on your goals.

Abide got me to buy a hex bar. I tried it for a while but it gave me sore knees. A lot of people swear by them. For me, the problem with hex-bar deadlifts is that it's harder to define what the proper technique is. With a barbell deadlift, the bar naturally goes up vertically close to the body, and my knees feel really stable. Just a preference I guess. Some would say you can substitute hex-bar deadlifts for both barbell deadlifts and squats, but I think having a bar on one's back makes the back squat unique. It's hard to fully replicate the back squat's effects with a bar on the floor or with dumbbells. I'm a late-comer to back squats--I always avoided them when I was younger--but I'm a true-believer now.

For rows, I prefer a one-armed dumbbell row done super heavy, with little attention to proper form. I like to just yank up as much weight as I can, and get a little rotation in my hips as well. However you do it, strict or loose, a dumbbell row provides greater ROM (range of motion) than a barbell row. I still do barbell rows, but I don't seem to get as much benefit, and I like cable rows better than barbell rows too.

I like dips a lot as well. Ring dips are a lot harder than bar dips, but probably more beneficial. Look forward to hearing how you like them. I think Abide has been doing them with rings as well.

Hopefully you're smarter than I was, but make sure to balance out your chest work with back work. Most of us, especially when we're younger, work the hardest on what we can see in the mirror.
 
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Good advice here. I agree with pretty much all you're saying, which is why a leg day doesn't work for me. I find leg day to be the most boring so if I do have leg day, well I end up hating that day so I prefer to mix it up in other days. I pull ups and dips are my favorite exercises. Back is very important and pull ups and rows (I prefer one arm rows just like you) are necessary. I haven't experimented much with a neutral grip dumbbell press but I've read good things about it. Let me know how you like it.

Pull downs don't accurately replicate a good chin up in my opinion, it's close enough but you'll feel the difference.

I don't have a barbell or a rack so Overhead press is a no no at the moment. I like the idea of it though. I find it to be a problem with shoulder press using dumbbells, if you end up lifting quite heavy then getting the weights up before the lift becomes more difficult and increases the risk of injury. It helps to have a spotter for this.

As for dips and rings, I like the idea of the rings because it will take less space than having a dip station and it might buy me some time before I have to do weighted dips.

At the end of the day, we all like or feel comfortable with different movements and exercises and it's important to find what works for you, your goals and your body.
 
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As far as dumbbells go, I really like the Powerblocks. They're an investment.
http://www.powerblock.com/prod_homeuse.php

My current minimalist routine.
dead, single db row
squat, pulldown
single db clean and press, bench

Yeah I looked at powerblock and Ironmaster for dumbbells and both are quite expensive. I ended up going for spin-locks for financial reasons. One day maybe! :)
 
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I do overhead with one dumbbell. I've modified the movement to resemble a landmine overhead press, to keep the movement in the scapular plane. I use a neutral grip, then place my other hand along the side of the dumbbell for stabilization and assistance, when necessary. It almost resembles a basketball free throw movement, but I don't launch the dumbbell into the air! :D
 
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Good advice here. I agree with pretty much all you're saying, which is why a leg day doesn't work for me. I find leg day to be the most boring so if I do have leg day, well I end up hating that day so I prefer to mix it up in other days. I pull ups and dips are my favorite exercises. Back is very important and pull ups and rows (I prefer one arm rows just like you) are necessary. I haven't experimented much with a neutral grip dumbbell press but I've read good things about it. Let me know how you like it.

Pull downs don't accurately replicate a good chin up in my opinion, it's close enough but you'll feel the difference.

I don't have a barbell or a rack so Overhead press is a no no at the moment. I like the idea of it though. I find it to be a problem with shoulder press using dumbbells, if you end up lifting quite heavy then getting the weights up before the lift becomes more difficult and increases the risk of injury. It helps to have a spotter for this.

As for dips and rings, I like the idea of the rings because it will take less space than having a dip station and it might buy me some time before I have to do weighted dips.

At the end of the day, we all like or feel comfortable with different movements and exercises and it's important to find what works for you, your goals and your body.
I like to do a 'lower body' lift like the squat, deadlift, or powerclean in every workout, and then some kind of mix of upper body pulls and/or pushes/presses. I used to split things up into body areas, like the bodybuilders, but for the time being at least, I'm sold on full-body workouts. And I notice it the next day with a greater appetite, so I know I've worked out more muscle mass overall. Full body workouts also allow me to sleep as well as I do after a good run.

I like the neutral grip dumbbell bench press, but it's humbling how little I can do compared to my barbell bench press. I'm sold on them, it's just a matter of finding the right mix. I've always liked to mix barbell and dumbbell overhead presses, also because they afford different grips. It's just that with barbells, you work more muscle mass.

I feel chinups in my lower back and abdominals much more than with pulldowns. For me, that's the biggest difference. Chinups are a more complete upper body exercise.

You should be able to clean enough weight to get your dumbells in position for an overhead press. Read up a little on power clean technique, or just do each arm separately as Sid suggests. Do you have craigslist in Quebec? If you're patient, you should be able to pick up equipment for cheap. Some guys will practically pay you to take their fitness stuff away if they're moving or need to clear space for their first born or remodeling or something.
 
I do overhead with one dumbbell. I've modified the movement to resemble a landmine overhead press, to keep the movement in the scapular plane. I use a neutral grip, then place my other hand along the side of the dumbbell for stabilization and assistance, when necessary. It almost resembles a basketball free throw movement, but I don't launch the dumbbell into the air! :D
Interesting idea. I'll give this a shot when I get to my old strength. For whatever reason, the thought never occurred to me to do it one hand at a time with the other hand helping to lift the dumbbell in the proper starting position.

Bare Lee, personally I don't do abs workouts anymore because squats, deads and chin ups work them plenty enough already. I couple of times I ended up with sore abs from chin ups, hehe.

I was never shown the proper clean technique so I stayed away from it. I was mostly referring the "technique" for a seated dumbbell shoulder press where you "swing" it up with some help from your knees. I find it risky without a spotter.
 
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Interesting idea. I'll give this a shot when I get to my old strength. For whatever reason, the thought never occurred to me to do it one hand at a time with the other hand helping to lift the dumbbell in the proper starting position.

Bare Lee, personally I don't do abs workouts anymore because squats, deads and chin ups work them plenty enough already. I couple of times I ended up with sore abs from chin ups, hehe.

I was never shown the proper clean technique so I stayed away from it. I was mostly referring the "technique" for a seated dumbbell shoulder press where you "swing" it up with some help from your knees. I find it risky without a spotter.
Yah, the abs are stabilizers, so if you lift heavy, they get plenty of work already. Still, I like to do a few ab exercises when I can. Old habits die hard.

Hmnn, I've never had trouble with the seated dumbbell shoulder presses, but I've never done them very heavy--usually in the 35-45 lbs range. Maybe try swinging the dumbbells into position before you sit down, to gain more leverage?
 
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Yah, the abs are stabilizers, so if you lift heavy, they get plenty of work already. Still, I like to do a few ab exercises when I can. Old habits die hard.

Hmnn, I've never had trouble with the seated dumbbell shoulder presses, but I've never done them very heavy--usually in the 35-45 lbs range. Maybe try swinging the dumbbells into position before you sit down, to gain more leverage?

I just found that past 60 lbs it became hard to swing them up while seated. Maybe I should just learn the proper clean technique so I can swing them up before seating. If all else fails I can always do them like Sid suggested. I actually like his idea.

Ever tried the "Arnold press"? I find I can't lift as heavy when doing them.
 
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I just found that past 60 lbs it became hard to swing them up while seated. Maybe I should just learn the proper clean technique so I can swing them up before seating. If all else fails I can always do them like Sid suggested. I actually like his idea.

Ever tried the "Arnold press"? I find I can't lift as heavy when doing them.
You look slim in your avatar picture, so 60lbs is impressive! How many reps do you do? For db overhead press, I tend to like the 5-8 rep range, and so far, 45lbs has been plenty. I don't do the Arnold press because my left shoulder has become tender with age. I like to start my dumbbell OH press in a neutral position and then finish with a pronated or overhand position, rotating as I go up, but going up vertically, with the elbow close to the shoulders, without the arc or loss of leverage of the Arnold press.

Opps, you're from Quebec, not Ontario, sorry . . .