Non-Achilles ankle issue

[C. Beth Run.]

I'll start out by admitting I've done too much too fast. Hey, the first step toward fixing the problem is admitting it, right? I'm in my 2nd week of BF running, have been running shod for 8+ months. I did two 2+ mile BF runs this week. Too far. My next run will be a lot shorter.

My left ankle--in the front, in between the outside ankle bone and the shin--hurts. I ran on it today, which was not the best plan. I'm going to rest it tomorrow and maybe longer depending how it feels.

I figured it was a muscle but a friend tells me he's thinking it's a tendon. I can find 5 zillion sites that talk about Achilles tendonitis but this particular area is an area I'm having trouble finding info on.

I think the solution is rest, ice, blah blah blah...all the normal stuff. But when I do run on it again, any ideas what would cause this particular pain? I know my ankles tend to be too stiff because I think too much about form, so I'll definitely work on relaxing them. Any other ideas? The pain isn't bad so I don't think it'll take long to get rid of it as long as I'm resting; I just want to prevent it from happening again.

Thanks!

 

[jschwab]

Me and hubby basically had

Me and hubby basically had ankle pain every run at the beginning and our ankles adapted in the end. You have to build up so much muscle and so much has to adapt, it's understandable there would be aches and pains. My only advive would be stick with true BF as much as you can, don't mix BFR with shod, and wear as low-heeled shoes when not running as possible.

 

[Barefoot TJ]

If you do have weak ankles,

If you do have weak ankles, then try exercising them everyday to make them stronger. Make sure you have completely healed before starting out again. Next time you run, concentrate on that spot to see if you are doing anything at that moment to trigger it. At the same time, try not to overthink it, or you could hurt yourself or worse, make your enjoyment of BFR less.

 

[NakedSoleNate]

 this is the tendon I

this is the tendon I sprained almost 3 weeks ago now ;-)....rest adequately....I couldn't walk for a week...limped all last week....still limping, but not as much pain....I don't have the ok to run again until there is no pain....I'm thinking 2-3 more weeks of no running for me ;-)



btw, this isn't just a BFR problem, my good friend, a life-long shod distance runner has done the same thing when not allowing proper rest between runs .

 

[Norm Deplume]

 I hurt that spot too, early

I hurt that spot too, early in my running. I don't know if it was TMTS or the shoes I was wearing at the time, but either way, it hurt. It took a couple of weeks to totally get over it, but I only took a week or so off running.

 

[C. Beth Run.]

Fantastic advice--thanks,

Fantastic advice--thanks, all.

jschwab--Yes, after doing a week of some BF/some shod, I did ditch the shoes completely this week. They were just frustrating me. I was trying to improve my form in my Asics and I was ending up hurting MORE because I was working AGAINST my shoes.

TJ--I found some ankle exercises online, so I'll start focusing on doing those. Thanks!

Norm & Nate--Yay, I'm glad to hear others have had pain in the same area (though of course sorry you had to go through it!) Mine is mild, no limping or anything, just annoying. I'm really hoping that it'll feel good by Saturday or Sunday so I can do a (SHORT!! SLOW!!) weekend run, but I'll take the weekend off if I need to.

I've been so disciplined with running since I started; if I have to take time off it's not going to be fun. It'll be a good exercise in delayed gratification...good for the soul (and sole), right?

 

[peacekaren]

Possibly the peroneal

Possibly the peroneal tendon?



http://www.summitmedicalgroup.com/library/sports_health/peroneal_tendon_strain_exercises/



Hope it feels better soon!



Peace,

Karen

 

[C. Beth Run.]

Thanks for the idea, Karen! I

Thanks for the idea, Karen! I Googled that, and the peroneal is behind the ankle bone; mine's in front of it. But that got me to doing more Googling. I'm actually thinking maybe it is muscular, because it feels like it may be in the place where the extensor digitorum longus muscle is. Here's a pic. There are tendons there too but mine feels like it's up and down like the muscle, not across the ankle like the tendons.

The GOOD news is, it's felt better as the day has gone on. It may be stiff again in the morning, but I feel like it's a good sign that it's already improving. I don't think it's an injury, but I do think it's enough soreness to get my attention and get me to alter my gung-ho training, and I'm thankful for that type of reminder.

 

[Jimmy Hart]

 i'm chiming in.  odds are

i'm chiming in. odds are you are correct on the ext. digi. long being the issue. ice and massage it. i would also recommend finding the place where it hurts the most and just pressing on it with some pretty good force. the goal will be to press the area out that has bound up. it's very common in runners be it bare or not and if you let it rest like you should it will have no lasting effects.

basically think of this as going to the gym and doing too much. you gotta give the muscles some time to relax, recover, and rebuild. after a day or two you should be fine but i would back off the miles a bit

 

[C. Beth Run.]

Okay, Jimmy, I'll try

Okay, Jimmy, I'll try pressing on it hard, but if I hurt it more, I'm sending you the bill! I know where you live! Well, I know the state, anyway...but it's a big state. Thanks for the advice!



ETA--I've been pressing on it. Seems like it may be helping.... Thanks!

 

[Jimmy Hart]

 I would never steer your

I would never steer your wrong my friend. I think that's in the Texas code somewhere. What happens is the way that muscle is strung across the ankle joint is sort of awkward and when you irritate it it has a tendency to ball up right in the middle of the joint because that's where the most space is. By pressing on it you are forcing the fibers to spread back out which will help alleviate the irritation.

glad it's working for you. it's not a newbie only kind of issue so don't worry about it. if i do a run with a lot of steep hills i will sometimes have to massage the area out.

 

[C. Beth Run.]

Jimmy--Thanks again. It's

Jimmy--Thanks again. It's doing really well today. Still slightly irritated, but very, very slightly. If it continues to do well I'll probably go tomorrow morning for a short (1 mile), slow BF run, bringing it down to a walk if I get any aches that don't work themselves out quickly.

 

[C. Beth Run.]

Just thought I'd post an

Just thought I'd post an update. My ankle has been feeling good. I went for a 1.14 mile run today. It was VERY, VERY slow. (Side note--to make sure your pace is slow, bring along a 4-year-old. There's no running fast when I bring my daughter along! Our running pace was 17:34/mile!)

My ankle started giving me slight twinges, but they went away as soon as I really relaxed. I think my issue has been that my ankles were stiff. I have read about lifting your toes, both when you lift your feet and right before you land. But when I FOCUS on that, I end up with stiff ankles. I wasn't letting my feet act as springs. I still focused on form today, but more on the big stuff...using gravity, lifting the feet, running gently. When I made sure I was really letting my ankles flex as I ran, they didn't hurt.

Interestingly, I've realized my toes naturally lift a bit before I land. But when I focus on keeping them lifted, I'm overdoing it and keeping everything too stiff. I see why everyone focuses so much on RELAXATION.... It was a much better run for me today because I was so much more relaxed.

So for now I'll keep the runs short and slow. Assuming everything still feels good, I will probably run more often than my typical 3 days a week; I figure I can handle more frequent runs when they are so short and slow. That way I'm still being conservative but not losing quite as much mileage. Any thoughts on that strategy?

 

[Barefoot TJ]

Try the new strategy, and if

Try the new strategy, and if after a day or two you feel no ill-effects, then I'd say it's a good strategy, for now. Increase your distance slowly though.

Ken Bob recommends we lift our toes upon lift and set down, but I'm sure he must not have meant throughout the entire foot cycle. Relaxing is so key, especially when we hit the hard stuff or start to feel twinges here and there, so keep reminding yourself of that whenever you recognize you may be a little stiff in your movements.

At least you have found something that works for you that's important to growth.

 

[Jimmy Hart]

 TJ if I can interject here

TJ if I can interject here Ken Bob's point on the toe raising is to remind the runner not to land on the toes. if you're lifting them then you wont be landing on them. it's also considered a bit of pre-loading for the arch which can be a good thing.

i dont see why you would still be lifting them when you pick your foot up though and definitely not through your entire stride. that would just create way too much tension and cause all kinds of problems like you wound up with C Beth. you guys already figured all that out but my coach brain took off after i read your last post beth

 

[C. Beth Run.]

The toe lifting sounds like a

The toe lifting sounds like a great idea, and I seem to do that naturally before landing. So that's not such an issue.

Here's where I am getting the "lift your toes before lifting your foot" thing: It's from this Ken Bob article. He doesn't actually say toes, and honestly in reading it I think I've been misinterpreting it. Anyway...here's exactly what he says. (His words in bold, my comments in regular text.)

Instead of pushing off, begin lifting your foot BEFORE it lands. (That sounds like he's talking about lifting the toes BEFORE landing.)Also, do not try to get up on your toes. Instead, try to keep your heel on the ground, until the foot begins to lift. In keeping your heel down, you will be exercising the muscles and tendons on top of the feet. Basically, while the foot is in contact with the ground, try to keep your entire sole on the ground.

But, let’s go a step further, and take an ACTIVE roll in this. Let’s PULL the front of our foot up, in order to allow the heel to stay on the ground – (This is where I got in my head the idea to pull the toes up before lifting the whole foot) actually, we WILL need to pull the front of the foot up, if our knees are bent enough – if we don’t NEED to PULL the front of our foot up, then we NEED to bend our knees more…

I guess I don't know what's meant by this. If I try to lift the front of my foot up, my foot seems to stay stiff. I feel like I need to really bend my foot while lifting it; otherwise I get all tight, and both my ankles AND my arches (and sometimes other areas!) start hurting. But when I let my foot bend as feels natural, lifting my heel FIRST and then my toes, I have a hard time not pushing off, and I can feel in my toes & the balls of my foot that there's a bit more friction there than there should be. When I try not to let my heel lift first, I feel like my feet are stiff "paddles" and I get all messed up.

How in the world do I lift my whole foot and not push off, while still letting my ankles and my arches flex? Overall I feel better doing what I'm doing now, than when I was focused so much on lifting my toes/front of foot. My muscles are much looser. But I know I'm getting something wrong because I have just a little too much friction.



Sorry so long...can be hard trying to explain all this instead of just SHOWING you. In fact, I think this week I may have my husband take a video of me running, and post it here for feedback on my BF stride. But until then...any input is appreciated!

 

[Barefoot TJ]

Sometimes when we overthink

Sometimes when we overthink it, we get injured. Sometimes too much detail is TMI. Also, what works for one person isn't necessarily what works for all. We can and should only give general advice, advice that we all should follow (don't push off, lift your feet, etc.), but when it comes to the minute details of our form, we have to find out individually what works for us.

I had the privledge and honor to have Ken Bob and family in my home while he visited Georgia, and I specifically asked him to give me one-on-one instruction of this particular technique in my front yard, since for the past two years of reading his posts, I had always been confused by what he meant, and what he said was [paraphrasing]...instead of concentrating on the landing, think more on the lifting. Lift your foot just as the reverse thrusters of the space shuttle would do as it comes to dock. He wasn't specifically talking about the toes; he was talking about the foot. He also explained why this was important. He said when we concentrate on counting cadence when we SET our foot DOWN, we tend to bring our foot down with more force, but when we count our cadence on the LIFT, then we step more lightly, and trigger that reverse thrust that should be taking place when we run barefoot.

I would think any excess lifting of the toes through any part of the gait would cause TOFP. I happen to run without using my toes, because of the problems I have with Morton's Neuroma. I can't push off or roll onto my toes as "normal" runners can, so I have developed a nearly flat footfall, nearly flat lift off, but that's just my quirky way I run.

Again, you need to find what works for you, and forget about the details until later...once you've found a (mostly) safe and comfortable form. Then you can try to incorporate one or two at a time, but only if and where needed.

 

[C. Beth Run.]

Thank you so much, TJ; this

Thank you so much, TJ; this is great advice. Overthinking things is definitely an issue I have, not just with running!

I'm going to try to forget (for now) some of the many details I've read about improving form, and try to focus more on the big stuff. The rocket analogy might help though; it does help make sense of the idea of lifting one's foot before putting it down. And counting cadence on the LIFT really makes sense to me; that's something I can definitely put into practice.

I am already focusing on lifting and running lightly, so I think it's probably one of those things I'm just going to need to keep practicing so I get the hang of it more and more. I'm thinking about lifting my feet as I walk around too.

Since my last 2 runs have been shorter, my soles are handling things quite well even though I know I'm still getting the hang of running lightly/reducing friction. Running 2 days in a row worked just fine yesterday & today but I'm glad I have tomorrow off.

 

[Jimmy Hart]

 didnt we have a talk a

didnt we have a talk a couple of weeks ago about you not thinking so much when you run? that lasted a long time now didnt it? i'm just kidding but everything TJ said is very sound if you are going for that type of form which it sounds like you are. Much like conventional shoe running there are more than a few forms one can use when running barefoot. do not worry about your toes. for the Ken Bob form you just have to keep your knees bent and try not to put your foot down heavily. his form looks like the wheels on a train with the bar connecting them. it's a short smooth circular motion through his legs and his not real tall in his stance.

he squats down with a good amount of knee bend and just scoots along. so since you are focusing on his guidance for form you should be incorporating those things into your stride to make his advice work properly. bend those knees, keep them soft, and focus on being gentle with the feet. oh and dont over think it

 

[C. Beth Run.]

Yeah, Jimmy, I thought about

Yeah, Jimmy, I thought about not overthinking it, but the more I thought about it, the more I overthought it--ha ha. No, really, I will try to do better. I think I just want it to all work perfectly, immediately, which of course it won't.

One more question.

It's hard to bend the knees a lot since it's something I'm not used to. You say "since you're focusing on his guidance for form." I take it that means there are variations that are a bit different than KB's advice? Are the very-bent knees something that change from person to person, or are they pretty crucial for BF running?