5th Annual Winter Challenge

I don't have good cold tolerance at all for my toes...over the last 2 weeks I've come to an understanding what i can do barefoot in the cold. From about 40F to 32F about 2.0 mile - 2,5 mile...32F to 20F about 1 mile only before my toes are numb...I'll see later this winter on the 15F and below. I wish i could go lower like some of you all here but that's it for me.
 
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I don't have good cold tolerance at all for my toes...over the last 2 weeks I've come to an understanding what i can do barefoot in the cold. From about 40F to 32F about 2.0 mile - 2,5 mile...32F to 20F about 1 mile only before my toes are numb...I'll see later this winter on the 15F and below. I wish i could go lower like some of you all here but that's it for me.

I hear ya man. Though this being my 4th winter I'm seeing some improvement this year. The middle two toes on my right foot always go numb first / warmup the last. Even in the mid 30's, or even 40 if there is also a good amount of wind the feet will go numb within a half mile or so. They warm back up usually, but it takes 2-3 miles if I'm running at a slowish pace. And I don't like running those couple miles without good sensation. But probably not any worse than running in shoes!

I posted some of this in the mileage reporting thread yesterday but I'll include it here as well. Got my first snow run of the year! Not only that but the very first snow run that I actually enjoyed! It was about 26ºF out and fairly calm. Clear blue skies and bright sun, sides of road (and parts of the road) white with snow. Hard packed, and in some cases slushy due to the bright sun. Now 26ºF even with no wind is still darn cold for me so I tried some tricks. Preheated the feet up in front of the pellet stove as hot as I could stand for about 5 minutes. Then I tried the Vaseline (man was that messy and gross). But my feet stayed warmer than they had during any sub-40º run yet I think. Some of the slushy snow really started to chill them but then a stretch of road or hardpack they would warm back up. 2.5mi total, about .5-1 of it on snow.

img20141122_201411.jpg Preheating the feet.
img20141122_201034.jpgChecking road temp. A few degrees warmer than air temp due to the bright sun.
img20141122_201206.jpgSnow temp on road in direct sunlight (in the shade it was 10º cooler).
img20141121_224305.jpgDown the road from my house.
img20141121_224142.jpgSnow along the side of road.
 
I don't have good cold tolerance at all for my toes...over the last 2 weeks I've come to an understanding what i can do barefoot in the cold. From about 40F to 32F about 2.0 mile - 2,5 mile...32F to 20F about 1 mile only before my toes are numb...I'll see later this winter on the 15F and below. I wish i could go lower like some of you all here but that's it for me.


mokaman - don't get too hung up on comparing tolerance. Over the last 5 years, I've seen my tolerance change, up and down. Maybe it really isn't tolerance that is key. I believe the challenge makes a barefoot runner more aware of feedback. I understand what conditions lead favourably to winter barefoot running. The only times I get into trouble is when ego takes over.

The winter challenge translates perfectly to summer running. Hot asphalt is just as difficult to run on and frozen ground. I look at winter running as adding to my repitoire
 
Good for you Staif ... Enjoyment should be the #1 prioirity.
Enjoyment is the reason I put up with the cold. I don't enjoy running in shoes as much as bare, and I don't mind running with somewhat numb feet. If I could tolerate snow, I'd run bare in that too. It would be a gas.

Today it's supposed to be around 5C/41F, but possibly raining. I'm going to try to get in my first bare run in two weeks. We got a freezing snow two Sunday nights ago that covered everything in an inch or so of compacted snow with January temps. Of the three WCs I've participated in, this is the worst November by far. But at least I'm not in Buffalo!

I'm encouraged that Tristan has found the jelly helps. I'll put some of that on along with the Musher's Secret. I'm usually good on wet pavement above freezing, but a little extra insulation would be nice.

Tristan, does that road get much traffic? Looks like you could run right in the middle of it.
 
Are there any other competitions that feature barefoot and minimalist footwear running? I enjoy having the competition as a way to sorta spur me along. It's like added energy when I'm out there, charting my course in my head, looking forward to plot it down in Wikimapia so I can post it on the spreadsheet. :)

It's more involving, for sure. I am planning on running regardless, because my body yells at me that it wants to run if I don't do it enough.

I kinda jumped into this whole thing mainly from the book, "Born to Run," and what I gathered from that was that the gait was the most important thing to be gleaned from watching and emulating the barefoot runners. I understand completely the sensations from running barefoot, and it was a blast doing so for most of the summer months, but it doesn't really make sense to do it during the winter months, as it would certainly cause detriment to all but the most cautious, and even then I can't see such short distances in subfreezing temperatures worth the effort and/or risk. Especially considering the availability of modern technology that can closely emulate barefoot running without sacrificing warmth and safety. (RunAMocs, socks and huaraches, Vibrams, etc.)

So is there anything like Toes on the Roads for the winter months?
 
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Hi Straif,

Toes on Roads will be returning in May with an 'everyone-for-themselves-stampede' and there is also International Barefoot Running Day on 3rd May to look forward to next year, but I wasn't planning to run any competitions in addition to the traditional Winter Challenge over the Winter months, sorry. (I am however aware that the Winter Challenge doesn't suit everyone - and is not a lot of interest to members in the Southern Hemisphere :( )

Maybe you could try and drum up some interest for local group runs over this period?

Happy Running!

Cheers,

Paul
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Enjoyment is the reason I put up with the cold. I don't enjoy running in shoes as much as bare, and I don't mind running with somewhat numb feet. If I could tolerate snow, I'd run bare in that too. It would be a gas.

Today it's supposed to be around 5C/41F, but possibly raining. I'm going to try to get in my first bare run in two weeks. We got a freezing snow two Sunday nights ago that covered everything in an inch or so of compacted snow with January temps. Of the three WCs I've participated in, this is the worst November by far. But at least I'm not in Buffalo!

I'm encouraged that Tristan has found the jelly helps. I'll put some of that on along with the Musher's Secret. I'm usually good on wet pavement above freezing, but a little extra insulation would be nice.

Tristan, does that road get much traffic? Looks like you could run right in the middle of it.

Agreed. I have a couple pairs each of VFFs, Merrells, huaraches, Soft Stars, Vivobarefoot... nothing for me comes close to barefoot. In fact in almost all cases they cause problems with my feet if I try running in them. But I can relate to Straif... my first 2-3 years barefoot I wasn't even that interested in trying to run below freezing barefoot. Back then it did seem to zap all the fun out of it being so cold. I even got some frost nip above freezing once and thought to myself never again! So far this winter is looking much better!

The jelly helped (I think) but be warned its a slimy nasty mess! I will probably use it again, but only on the days I think are really pushing the limit for me. Then again I don't want to have to put on socks or shoes without being able to wash the stuff off my feet really well either, so maybe the really questionable days I need a different strategy.

My road doesn't get a lot of traffic, on my 2.5mi jaunt that day had maybe 3 cars go by. Just depends on the day/time. I get aggravated sometimes when its nearly a steady flow. Other times I get lucky and maybe only 1 car. Yeah I run in the middle sometimes, there are some really rough broken up sections that I run around. But the packed snow on the sides was actually smoother and it was fun to run on. They tend to put little chips and whatnot in the salt trucks I guess, and on the bare road those still bother me so the side was looking more appealing at the time.
 
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Maybe you could try and drum up some interest for local group runs over this period?
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Maybe I'll do that, Sir Paul. My girlfriend's work has a public bulletin board, and I can also check local sites for 5-10ks.

As an aside, I was out running a five mile route in the rain today. The weather was around 47° F. About three and a half miles into the circuit my lace snapped on my left sandal (I've noticed the stock laces for the DIY XeroShoes don't work very well when soaked), and I said to myself, "Well, time to go barefoot I guess." NOPE. My feet went insta-NUMB. It was incredible. I had the same thing happen to me in September or October with my right sandal, but the ground wasn't nearly as cold as it is now. I think I made it about 200 feet before I realized I needed to rig something up with my remaining lace before I lost all my toes forever to frostbite (I figured toes were at least required for Toes on the Roads).

Don't any of you guys running in the deep freeze get a little concerned when you can't feel your feet anymore? How do you know frostbite isn't setting in? I even tried rubbing my toes and I could barely feel them with my hands! Haha!

Ah well, waiting till May, I guess.
 
i guess winter running must be like what i say about children: they're all different. i have been lucky in that i must just have a decent cold tolerance (self-aggrandizement alert: i'm not that amazing. i looked at my "log" and realized my coldest barefoot run last winter was like 25F or something; below that or in much snow i was scraping holes in my moccasins). that, or it was all the running around in high school with boots where the soles were almost detached from the uppers so the lake-effect snow just waltzed in and made itself at home.

just like anything else, i think you have to try it out in little bits to gain confidence about what you can and cannot do. <insert cliche about how the body can do so much more than you think it can> but let us instantly qualify the cliche by saying: the mind is there for good reasons and one of those is to keep the body from destroying itself when the body thinks the body can do more than the body can; leave the thinking to the mind! :)

yeah, your feet will get cold (even above freezing), but it's really, really hard to get frostbite above freezing. hence pick a time when it's above freezing so you most likely won't get a significant thermal injury even if you do something stupid. and feet really can revive once your body figures out that the main part isn't going to freeze to death. however, that can take 2 or 3 miles or 15 or 20 or 25 minutes. that is, it might take long enough that you freak out before the blood vessels open up. (e.g., courtesy of our resident investigator of all things interesting, https://ahcuah.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/ive-got-civd/ ) even when my feet have gotten really cold, as soon as i get back inside the house, the body instantly figures out that there is no more worry of getting too cold. the floodgates open, and my toes are warm in literally one or two minutes. that is quite different from when i was a kid and would stay out *way* too long in the snow and have the frozen/immobile feet in shoes that would take like an hour or two to get fully restored to warmth.

so give it a try at a relatively-speaking warm temperature like that 47F case and try it on as smooth/clear sidewalk as you can find so you don't have to worry as much about the pokies. and pokies are *much* worse on cold feet so you don't want to be distracted by that when you're trying to feel out the temperatures. or stay super close to home and run tiny laps so you know you can bail at any time. and, of course, don't be a macho man running in short-shorts when it's cold. i know all the shoddies do it and they look like real men. but they are keeping all that heat and sweat in their feet, so they have to dissipate it somehow. you want to keep that blood piping hot until the moment it has to melt the ice so let your freak flag fly with the long underwear and tights and pants and sweatpants or whatever it takes. and it *is* fun when your feet have warmed up and you run over snow or through puddles and the moisture is the one crying "uncle".
 
Don't any of you guys running in the deep freeze get a little concerned when you can't feel your feet anymore? How do you know frostbite isn't setting in?
Everything Broad Arrows says. Lemme just add that for me, there are two kinds of numbing: gradual and immediate. I call these "Numb Plunge I" and "Numb Plunge II."

With gradual numbing, or Numb Plunge I, it takes up to a mile or two for the numbing to level off, and only the toes and a bit of the side of the foot gets numb, although the metatarsals can feel stiffer as well. The numb bits are not completely numb and remain nice and red.

With Numb Plunge II, the numbing is fast and there's no leveling off. My feet will keep getting number and number and then turn white. This is when frostnip or frostbite occurs.

Like BA says, everyone has to discover their own tolerances, both mental and physiological. For me, I experience Numb Plunge I down to about 5-10F in dry conditions, and down to about freezing in wet. I experience Numb Plunge II in wet conditions below freezing, and sometimes a little above it as well, and in dry conditions in the single digits (F) or below.

Yesterday, for example, the temp was 44, the windchill 40, and the pavement was consistently wet from the melting snow, but my feet didn't get very numb at all, and after a mile they started to warm up a bit. And after two weeks of frozen snow, it was fantastic to feel the pavement again with my soles. For some of us, the plantar stimulation is truly addicting, like spicy food or something.
 
Agreed. I have a couple pairs each of VFFs, Merrells, huaraches, Soft Stars, Vivobarefoot... nothing for me comes close to barefoot. In fact in almost all cases they cause problems with my feet if I try running in them. But I can relate to Straif... my first 2-3 years barefoot I wasn't even that interested in trying to run below freezing barefoot. Back then it did seem to zap all the fun out of it being so cold. I even got some frost nip above freezing once and thought to myself never again! So far this winter is looking much better!

The jelly helped (I think) but be warned its a slimy nasty mess! I will probably use it again, but only on the days I think are really pushing the limit for me. Then again I don't want to have to put on socks or shoes without being able to wash the stuff off my feet really well either, so maybe the really questionable days I need a different strategy.

My road doesn't get a lot of traffic, on my 2.5mi jaunt that day had maybe 3 cars go by. Just depends on the day/time. I get aggravated sometimes when its nearly a steady flow. Other times I get lucky and maybe only 1 car. Yeah I run in the middle sometimes, there are some really rough broken up sections that I run around. But the packed snow on the sides was actually smoother and it was fun to run on. They tend to put little chips and whatnot in the salt trucks I guess, and on the bare road those still bother me so the side was looking more appealing at the time.
Have you tried the Sockwas? I too tried Merrells, Soft Stars, and VivoBarefoot, but felt like they all altered my gait/foot landing, until Rick or someone here recommended the Sockwas. With those, all that's missing is the plantar stimulation, otherwise, I think I run pretty much the same. You can run over compacted snow and feel every contour and crevice. I think the sole is just something like 1.2mm.

Anyway, I had a nice afternoon run yesterday in the Fairgrounds, but I'm pretty sure I'll be spending most of the winter running first thing in the morning, so I'll be lucky to place this year. I gained 30 pounds last winter due to inconsistent running. I want to do everything I can to remain consistent this winter. I think I may also switch from ED running to EOD running. It's a little hard mentally to face those cold morning temps everyday. I think it might be better to run longer less frequently and make it a little adventure. Good god, it's been a whole year I think since I last ran continuously for more than six miles. I would be nice to start getting in a half-marathonish run once in a while.
 
I'm out. :confused: Going to actually enjoy running, thank you very much.

I'm with you on that. The " cool" factor wore off years ago trying to be barefoot all winter. I absolutely prefer barefoot running over anything, but I won't let weather dictate my running. I hate winter but love running in the cold and snow, go figure.
 
I agree with BG and Lee. love running barefoot but will not risk frostbite to my feet. I dislike running on treadmills or running indoors so I brave the cold all winter outside running in temperatures into the -40C range but with some sort of min shoes. If streets are dry or with compacted dry snow I will venture short barefoot runs to as low as -15C, the colder it is the shorter the runs.
 
I'm with you on that. The " cool" factor wore off years ago trying to be barefoot all winter. I absolutely prefer barefoot running over anything, but I won't let weather dictate my running. I hate winter but love running in the cold and snow, go figure.
I think for some of us, the "cool" factor was never much of a factor, it's simply a love of tactile stimulation and a dislike of shoes. The old condom analogy comes up again. If there's a risk of disease or unwanted pregnancy, or frostbite in the case of winter barefoot running, use protection, but if not, why would you even think about it?

But yeah, this winter and last, I find myself, like BG, wondering if it's really worth the bother of seeking out ideal barefoot conditions. It was really boring running back and forth on the clear street in the fairgrounds yesterday, and I would've much preferred getting the run in in the morning. Has the balance tipped? Maybe time-of-day and ambiance have become more important to me than plantar pleasure.

Still, if I commit to the early morning winter running, it'll be distressing to lose my callus. This used to be a normal seasonal process for me, when I was simply a casual barefooter, but for the last three winters of barefoot running, I've managed to maintain some semblance of thickened skin throughout the winter. It will feel funny if it goes all soft. And then I wonder how long it will take to build it back up in the spring . . .

Anyway, nice chatting with y'all. No one else understands these concerns!
 
I will come clean and say i was trying be "cool" ha! I need to run it's therapy for me, if I need to put something on the feet so be it. Or I can sit in my house and pout like a baby because I can't run barefoot:) I never got callouses on my feet, and don't worry about losing conditioning. It's like riding a bike, give it a week of barefoot running and you're back to where you were conditioning wise before winter.