Optimal strength training for runners

Yeah a neutral grip, it will kind of mimick lifting in a trap bar. Keeping the dumbbells that far out in front like he shows messes with the positioning for me. Its fine for lighter weights but when it gets heavy... It would be equivalent to deadlifting with the bar too far in front of you rather than riding up your shins.
Yeah, I found that with the shape of my DBs, that I need to hold them at a 45' angle slightly outside my leg. This way the weight is slightly in front, as it would be in a DL.
 
Well Sid I found a good upper body focused conditioning routine.

paddleboarding-300x225.jpg


In fact I just picked up a couple on a great deal I got through a spam email.
 
Well Sid I found a good upper body focused conditioning routine.

paddleboarding-300x225.jpg


In fact I just picked up a couple on a great deal I got through a spam email.
Are you talking about the ladies or the paddles and the boards?
 
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Hey, Abide and anyone else who may have shoulder issues, I thought this could be useful:
http://www.t-nation.com/training/do-it-yourself-myofascial-release
My gimpy left shoulder sure feels better when I'm more vigilant about stretching and massaging that area. I'm wondering if inattention to stretching and massaging has been the problem all along? As we age, this stuff becomes more important I guess. My shoulder never gave me grief while lifting when I was younger, that's for sure. And there doesn't seem to be any correlation between any of the lifts and post-workout soreness in the shoulder. I've adopted a medium grip for the bench press, and a few other ideas, like tightening up the back more for the OH Press, but other than that, the main difference (so far) seems to be the amount that I stretch and massage the area in between workouts. Still experimenting, but I thought I'd pass on this observation in case it helps and/or spurs further discussion.
 
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I've been thinking more about proper posture and stretching recently. For a change of pace, I was thinking about trying some yoga and pilates videos. I came across a youtube video, with stretches for dancers. Gave it a try. I'm not terribly inflexible, but there are areas to improve.

I came across a new PiYo exercise video, that I might try. I'm also going to try to look for something like yoga/pilates for runners/jocks and see what I can find.
 
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PiYo seems to be about bodyweight exercises. That said, I might still give it a try.

As far as stretching, I was thinking about this dvd.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1935045105

Rountree has several short videos online.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUI7jqgd9rYaGdqEfFV_GLRNpAXdjz3cj
Thanks! Will look into it. Don't let the Sock Doc know you're disseminating this subversive material though.

One of the things I used to always do, but for some reason stopped doing many years back, is simply grab a bar, handrail, chair, counter, or wall behind me, palms facing down, and then squat down as far as I can. Really good stretch for the pecs, shoulder, and upper back. I've been doing some of the movements in that T-Nation link too today, seems to already be helping.

As far as hip stuff goes, I've found simply doing Deep/Olympic/Ass-to-Grass Back Squats with decent weight has decreased my need to stretch or massage my legs for running. Really a great mobility exercises as well as strength exercise. Next week I'll start practicing the splits again before and after doing my high kicks on the heavy bag. I gotta get back to kneeling more too.
 
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Ha, I commented on that article. Basically, he starts out with a simple slogan and name-calling to draw web traffic, then qualifies it as "don't do static stretching when your muscles are cold or if you're injured.

His simplistic slogan has induced many to stop stretching full-stop, resulting in avoidable injuries.

In any case, it's a controversial topic but the fact remains that many, perhaps most, elite athletes still stretch. For runners, unless you're an elite endurance athlete with access to masseuses, it's probably a good idea to do a little stretching here and there too, as injury prevention (ITBS, TOFP, tight hips, etc.) but many have reported they do fine without it. Like everything else, it depends.
 
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Like everything else, it depends.

"Depends" is probably the best answer to pretty much every issue. Safe, but usually true.
I really can only think of one question that it probably would be best not to fall back to.
 
Twice now I've felt a slight twinge in my left shoulder while doing the assisted chin-ups. I'm wondering if there's something odd about the resistance curve when using bands, or if I'm not holding the back stiff enough and allowing my shoulder to hyper extend somewhat at the bottom of the movement (although I feel the niggle at the top of it), cf. http://www.rdlfitness.com/how-to-underhand-pull-up.

In any case, I'm thinking of laying off the chin-ups for a while and going back to pull-downs, probably both supine and neutral grip, since none of the other exercises/lifts seem to be directly aggravating the left shoulder any more, and I've never had any trouble with pull-downs in the past. Thoughts?
 
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Twice now I've felt a slight twinge in my left shoulder while doing the assisted chin-ups. I'm wondering if there's something odd about the resistance curve when using bands, or if I'm not holding the back stiff enough and allowing my shoulder to hyper extend somewhat at the bottom of the movement (although I feel the niggle at the top of it), cf. http://www.rdlfitness.com/how-to-underhand-pull-up.

In any case, I'm thinking of laying off the chin-ups for a while and going back to pull-downs, probably both supine and neutral grip, since none of the other exercises/lifts seem to be directly aggravating the left shoulder any more, and I've never had any trouble with pull-downs in the past. Thoughts?
Personal experience : Chin ups/pull ups created pain in my right shoulder in pronated grip. It does sound very similar to what you are describing, though I think I felt it most mid movement. I couldn't really find a solution so I ended up doing supinated grip pull ups.

It's probably not the answer you were looking for as it's not really a solution. I chose to go around the problem rather than fix it. Anyway, whether it was due to incorrect form or something not working properly in my body, I chose to go with what didn't cause me pain.
 
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Personal experience : Chin ups/pull ups created pain in my right shoulder in pronated grip. It does sound very similar to what you are describing, though I think I felt it most mid movement. I couldn't really find a solution so I ended up doing supinated grip pull ups.

It's probably not the answer you were looking for as it's not really a solution. I chose to go around the problem rather than fix it. Anyway, whether it was due to incorrect form or something not working properly in my body, I chose to go with what didn't cause me pain.
Thanks, yah, I've stopped doing pronated grip and wide grip pull-ups/-downs, after reading somewhere that these grips may cause shoulder impingement. I'm still experimenting with the difference between neutral/parallel grip versus supinated grip, both done medium/shoulder width.

The question was more pullup versus pulldown, regardless of grip. I know in general that pullups are considered to be superior to pulldowns, work more of the stabilizers, and are more manly, but if I can perform pulldowns with a tighter back or perhaps with a more natural resistance curve--since I'm currently unable to perform pullups unassisted--and thus put less stress on my gimpy shoulder, then I'm happy doing them instead. Just wondering if there's a good theoretical justification for switching, or if anyone has a good intuitive or experiential sense of these potential differences. I'm not married to any particular exercise, so if both cause pain, I can give them both up.

What I suspect, is that perhaps because the bands increase resistance towards the bottom of the movement, that I maybe relaxing too much, and then starting the concentric phase without having the lats and rhomboids nice and tight, although where I've felt the pain has been at the top of the movement.

I might try an unassisted chinup today as sort of a 1RM, practice a few slower eccentric lowerings, and then switch to pulldowns.

In general, it's hard to pin down the shoulder issue because the joint is involved in pretty much every exercise except squats, and my experimentation isn't methodical enough to isolate one variable or exercise at a time. So any and all ideas are welcome.
 
Weighed myself this morning: 250lbs!

No wonder it's hard to do pullups.

So, taking a tip from that article, maybe do something like:

1-2 attempts at unassisted chinups
3 sets of eccentric lowerings
3x5 angled pullups (45-60 degrees?) with feet resting on floor or bench.
3x5 pulldowns from kneeling position

??

I don't know what's best, and I'm not sure how accurate that article really is, but pull ups at 250 would be significantly harder than at 200. Your best bet might even be to do realy heavy pull downs for now and low sets 3-5. Once you get to 225 may be a better time to do the progressions?

I have a feeling what you are feeling in your shoulder is more a case of early biceps tendonitis and not a shoulder impingement. Usually this flares up when you add significant amounts of the rowing motion.

I am also not really a big fan of the progressions. I think doing heavy pull downs, heavy single arm DB rows and weight loss are more effective than anything else. And honestly a pull up is just a pull up. Its really not that big of a deal. I actually like the feeling of a pull down better than a pull up. It feels safer and more effective of a back workout. If I had a pull down machine I think I would do it as much as I do pull-ups. I think the stabilization piece is a bit overkill, and there is no way it is a more effective lift than say a farmers walk, DL, Goblet Squat or leg raise.

So honestly my advice would be to dump them for now and focus on other things. I really think at 225 or less you will have no problem knocking a few out.
 
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I don't know what's best, and I'm not sure how accurate that article really is, but pull ups at 250 would be significantly harder than at 200. Your best bet might even be to do realy heavy pull downs for now and low sets 3-5. Once you get to 225 may be a better time to do the progressions?

I have a feeling what you are feeling in your shoulder is more a case of early biceps tendonitis and not a shoulder impingement. Usually this flares up when you add significant amounts of the rowing motion.

I am also not really a big fan of the progressions. I think doing heavy pull downs, heavy single arm DB rows and weight loss are more effective than anything else. And honestly a pull up is just a pull up. Its really not that big of a deal. I actually like the feeling of a pull down better than a pull up. It feels safer and more effective of a back workout. If I had a pull down machine I think I would do it as much as I do pull-ups. I think the stabilization piece is a bit overkill, and there is no way it is a more effective lift than say a farmers walk, DL, Goblet Squat or leg raise.

So honestly my advice would be to dump them for now and focus on other things. I really think at 225 or less you will have no problem knocking a few out.
Thanks, since writing that last comment, I've been thinking the same thing. It really helps to get your feedback and additional insights. That tips the balance. I've always done well with pulldowns, and like you say, I like to do them in the 5 rep range, fairly heavy at around 170 pounds or so. I could do them off the floor, kneeling so if the loaded weight starts to approach my body weight, I'll rise up.

I did 240 bench press yesterday, no problem, so the basic program I've been pursing is leading to good results in all the other lifts. As you suggest, I think I'll just put chinups on the back burner and trust that they will come as my general strength levels continue to improve, and, hopefully, as I lose some of the excess weight I'm carrying. My wife says my butt and back are getting bigger, so I'm doubting that 200 is realistic for me, but something like 210-220 is probably pretty close to my lean BW. It's hard to say, but it appears that the last several months of deadlifts, rows, and squats have added 10-15 pounds of mass.

I'm also concluding that what I'm dealing with isn't shoulder impingement. But the funny thing is, it moves around, so I wonder if it's any one thing at all. It could just be trigger points/knots resulting from a lack of mobility and/or post workout stretching/massaging. Right now where I'm feeling the most pain is at the top of my triceps, where it meets the shoulder, maybe the lateral head? A month or two ago I was feeling it in the anterior delt and pec. I've been stretching and massaging it quite a bit over the last 48 hours, and it's helping quite a bit. Yesterday on the bench press I didn't feel anything at all, and the day before, on the deadlift, although it was quite painful, it didn't interfere with my ability to go super heavy. So I dunno. I'm doubting it's anything structural. Plus, it was actually worse before I started getting back into shape. It would make a clicking sound.
 
I'm also concluding that what I'm dealing with isn't shoulder impingement. But the funny thing is, it moves around, so I wonder if it's any one thing at all. It could just be trigger points/knots resulting from a lack of mobility and/or post workout stretching/massaging. Right now where I'm feeling the most pain is at the top of my triceps, where it meets the shoulder, maybe the lateral head? A month or two ago I was feeling it in the anterior delt and pec. I've been stretching and massaging it quite a bit over the last 48 hours, and it's helping quite a bit. Yesterday on the bench press I didn't feel anything at all, and the day before, on the deadlift, although it was quite painful, it didn't interfere with my ability to go super heavy. So I dunno. I'm doubting it's anything structural. Plus, it was actually worse before I started getting back into shape. It would make a clicking sound.

I do get pain in the shoulder too from deadlifting but more on the side and top. I think like you said its also some type of soft tissue pain, tendon or muscular but I am not sure. The osteo claimed I had and impingement but it didn't really seem right, I had complete shoulder mobility with no weak points. So I self diagnosed biceps tendonitis and treated it like that and it pretty much went away except for some minor flare ups here and there.
 
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