Optimal strength training for runners

Thanks Sid, two great summaries and they largely jibe with my experience, which is always nice. I've been having a protein bar before st workouts, but maybe I'll go back to protein shakes with creatine and BCAA added too. The main conclusion of that first article was that the window for avoiding a catabolic state is much larger than some broscience indications on the meathead sites, which often put it at 30 minutes post-workout.

Yesterday, new deadlift PR: 345! I warmed up to single at 315, and it felt heavy. Normally, this means I don't go any further. But for some reason I just felt like I could do a little more. So I added two 10s and two 5s. The bar came up slowly, but I have the confidence now that I'm not going to hurt myself so I allowed myself to strain a bit and pulled the damn thing up, still with pretty good form. Then I took off 10 pounds for a single at 335, 20 pounds more for a single at 315, then four reps at 275. On the last rep I felt just a hint of a niggle in my left MCL, so I called it a day. I had intended to do two more back-off sets of 4-5 reps.

Then I tried alternating agonist-antagonist muscles for the first time. First pullups with wide grip alternating with seated barbell overhead presses, then pullups with neutral grip alternating with seated dumbbell overhead presses (which are also neutral grip in initial position). It was kind of a hassle taking the barbell off the rack and moving the bench out of the way for each pullup set, but overall, it did speed things up, as I rested less between sets. Today I'm super sore all over. I think this is a good protocol.

So the latest tweak to my routine is to have each workout begin with
1] "Lifts"
This includes deadlifts, squats, all their assistance exercises like good mornings and hip thrusts, plus power cleans, high pulls, and hex bar jumps.
Then I move to the second phase of the workout and do
2] Upper Body Pushes, alternating with
3] Upper Body Pulls

Here's an article explaining the logic (besides the convenience of speeding up workouts) involved in alternating agonist and antagonist muscles:
http://www.flexonline.com/training/news/opposites-attack

This article also provides a schematic of all the agonist-antagonist pairings, which helped me tweak the routine a little more, resulting in this (prioritized exercises once again in boldface):

ST 3 Alternating Antagonistic 14.07.15.jpg

In the first two st workouts, the agonist-antagonist pairings are pretty exact, but in the third workout, the interpretation of what constitutes an opposite exercise gets a little loose, so that I can fit in all the exercises I've decided work for me. Over the last several months, exercise selection hasn't changed too much, just order and combination. I moved the CAMP 1 and CAMP 2 workouts to the bottom of the page to make things clearer, but ideally, they're done in between the ST workouts, on Tuesdays and Thursdays, respectively.

I can either do every week like this, or alternate it with my penultimate scheme, in which the lifts remain the same but the pushes and pulls are done in separate workouts.

In any case, I can hardly wait for Wednesday's workout. Should be fun alternating rows with bench presses, and dips with Russian Twists!

Sid, let us know how it goes with the weighted vest. I've done a lot of walking carrying stuff, starting with a trumpet in fourth grade going to school, graduating to a french horn and double bass, then moving on to a backpack, and now the occasional groceries and kids.
 
The backpack is doing me good for now. With the walking mileage that I'm doing, I'm getting some soleful stimulation towards the end of my walks, a bit of tingling. Nothing bad, probably going to get some plantar thickening.

The barefoot weighted walking also appears to be helping my foot development. I can feel them getting a bit of a workout. I think that it's also helping to strengthen my left big toe which has been weak from a bunion. That toe also affects my running. I knew that there had to be a better way to strengthen the feet other than scrunching up a towel with the toes!
 
Left knee was feeling a bit tweaky after last night's weighted walk. Feels okay after this morning's weighted walk. I better keep an eye on it.
One thing you might want to try when you walking with weight is to bend your knees a bit. Also, allow your arms to swing naturally, instead of gripping the straps of the backpack, in case you're doing that.

After Monday's fantastic st workout, during dinner, I got a couple of sudden shots of pain in my left toe met, the one I stubbed a month or two ago, but which had been feeling close to fully healed. Strange. So I didn't run yesterday. Just in case. I'll try to hit it tomorrow. My left MCL feels 100% now.

The custom cables (for pulldowns and cross flyes) from Yukon Fitness came yesterday, and the measurements are perfect. Ordered on Thursday, delivered on Tuesday--just five days! So now I'm all set. I'll try to take a few pics today.

Can hardly wait to squat and then try alternating chest and rows later today. If my form feels settled, I might try a 1RM max squat to see where I'm at. I know there must be some synergy between the deadlifts and squats, and my deadlifts have improved since my last attempt at a 1RM squat.

I think those three levels are ok, but it seems like a better, more precise gauge is ExRx's strength standards, which are based on (lean) body weight and 1RMs in all the basic lifts.

Then it's nice to also factor in age,
http://lonkilgore.com/freebies/freebies.html
although those standards are possibly too generous or liberal. I feel like up to about age 40, I didn't notice any real fall off in strength. Still, it's nice to get bumped up from intermediate to advanced in most lifts, so I won't complain too much.
 
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Based on that article, I think that I'm going to cut out a day out of my rotation.
single db overhead squat, kb high pull

Then just keep these three for my beginner's routine.
squat, pulldown
dead, single db row
single db clean and press, bench
 
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I think those three levels are ok, but it seems like a better, more precise gauge is ExRx's strength standards, which are based on (lean) body weight and 1RMs in all the basic lifts.

Then it's nice to also factor in age,
http://lonkilgore.com/freebies/freebies.html
although those standards are possibly too generous or liberal. I feel like up to about age 40, I didn't notice any real fall off in strength. Still, it's nice to get bumped up from intermediate to advanced in most lifts, so I won't complain too much.

Yeah there is quite a variation between say someone lifting for one year and someone doing it for three. It's a decent guideline to follow initially I think though. The conclusion is pretty close to my past experience.

Today I went ahead and tried doing ring dips again and they went fine but I felt the same pain in the shoulder as always. Its kind of frustrating but its probably a good indication to give up on dips for good. There really isn't a reason I need to do them anyway. Close grip bench and ring push ups seem to give a close stimulus as replacements.

Gearing up for my tri in a week. I still haven't swam, good thing its only 500m. Biking and running have been going great though.

After reading all these studies I think I might start to do 4-5 quick workouts a week and hit 3-4 excercises each day. One main lift 2-3 reps 6-10 sets and 2-3 assitance lifts. Now I just need to figure out the loading. Maybe twoce heavy a week and the rest at 60-70%.

Squat
Farmers Walks
Pull-ups
Ab wheel

Bench
CG Incline Press
Pull-ups

Deadlift
SLDL
Inverted Rows
Ab wheel

Press
Ring Pushups
Swings
Suitcase walks

TBDL
Goblet Squats
KB Rows
Ab wheel

I do want to add some russian twists in there but I need to get that landmine and I can't seem to find it over here. I might have to rig up some wood or something to make it work.
 
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The article itself also lists additional levels of advance, subelite, elite.
Dr. Aragon is a fairly beefy fellow and a middle aged guy. He does the twice a week routine himself at the intermediate level.

Abide, why train more often and with less intensity? The article suggests less frequency and more intensity and more sets for experienced athletes. I do think that the article should be taken with a grain of salt, and that people should do what they enjoy and feels right.
 
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The article itself also lists additional levels of advance, subelite, elite.
Dr. Aragon is a fairly beefy fellow and a middle aged guy. He does the twice a week routine himself at the intermediate level.
Yah, I wasn't disagreeing, just saying that a bodyweight-to-1RM ratio is probably a more objective measure of one's level than any other calculation. Depending on training frequency and intensity, one could get to, say, an intermediate level in one or five years, so time is a poor measure. The set/rep/1RM%/times-per-week recommendations for a given level are a separate issue. For intermediate, 3x5 seems pretty good, which translate into 85% or so of 1RM. So there's no major disagreement between this and, say, Rippetoe's guidelines. Me, even though I'm intermediate, I do like the 1RM-to-backoff sets protocol for the big lifts, and then 3x5 for all the medium lifts, and then higher reps for the rinky dink stuff.

Anyway, stayed at 225 for my squats yesterday. I guess there's no use pushing things until my form feels absolutely solid and automatic. I think I went about as deep as I can go yesterday, and I really felt the elastic recoil of the eccentric phase push me back up into the concentric phase. So that's progress.

The alternation between bench press and other chest exercises, on the one hand, and rows, on the other, didn't go as well as the alternation between overhead presses and pullups on Monday. At first, I warmed up on the bench press and then once I got to my 3x5x185 sets, I began alternating them with inverted rows, which were easy enough to work in. I just pushed the bench away and used the weighted barbell in the rack. But for the dumbbell rows, I added 20 more pounds and did 3x3x120 for each arm. It was a tremendous amount of effort and I didn't feel like alternating them with dumbbell bench presses at all. Maybe next time. I did the cable flyes and cable rows completely separate as well, but that was mostly because I was focused on getting a feel for the cable flyes, and trying to figure out the right weight with my new set-up. I felt a little strain in my left shoulder, and today it's a little sore, so maybe I spent all that time designing the cross-over cables and putting them together for nothing. We'll see.

Got another massive pump on the Russian Twists but then somehow forgot to do my dips. Oh well, next time. I really wanted to see how those two felt in alternation.

Today I'm really sore, but pleasantly so. I can almost feel my back growing. I really feel like I've hit on a pretty good routine now, and expect pretty steady progress from here on out, for at least a year if I can keep it up.

Hopefully I can begin getting the running back in gear this afternoon. MCL feels great, as does my left big toe met.

Abide, why train more often and with less intensity? The article suggests less frequency and more intensity and more sets for experienced athletes. I do think that the article should be taken with a grain of salt, and that people should do what they enjoy and feels right.
With my routine of the last several months, I sometimes split the lower body lift off from the upper body push and pulls when I can't get all of them in in a single workout, and it works fine. It's kind of nice breaking the workouts into 20-to-30 minute chunks and getting through them quickly. As long as one's splitting upper and lower body, I think consecutive days works just fine, even at higher intensities. In fact, I've thought about a 30-minute-tempo-run-in-the-morning/30-minute-ST-session-in-the-afternoon routine, but I find it a bit taxing mentally to do stuff everyday. When I do the full workouts of my present routine, I definitely need a full 48 hours to recover. Hopefully I can get my runs up to 60 minutes of medium intensity effort too.
 
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The article itself also lists additional levels of advance, subelite, elite.
Dr. Aragon is a fairly beefy fellow and a middle aged guy. He does the twice a week routine himself at the intermediate level.

Abide, why train more often and with less intensity? The article suggests less frequency and more intensity and more sets for experienced athletes. I do think that the article should be taken with a grain of salt, and that people should do what they enjoy and feels right.

Well there are a bunch of reasons, most importantly because I would categorize myself in the beginner/intermediate level. I do have some experience lifting, but I think once you begin to combine strength training and endurance related activities the limited capacity for specialization predetermines the skill level you can obtain in either activity. The whole jack of all master of none argument.

Then there is the time aspect usually I have around ~30 minutes to lift a day and for trained individuals it seems like each muscle group gets trained twice a week, 5-6 sets at 80% intensity is the sweet spot. With this layout I can go in an hit the main lift hard for 10 minutes and easily get in that quantity and then spend another 10 minutes with accesories and be done. If I lift 4 times a week I will hit the main muscle groups (I've simplified into upper and lower) twice a week.

This also jives with a lot of advice I have read from non-drugged lifters as well, so I think it is quality advice. But I have customized it a little, I respond better to higher frequency for back work so I will do something like it each day. And I also like the set every minute concept and it works well with 80% and usually by the 6-8th set it feels fast and easy which is a perfect time to quit.

I don't know Dr. Aragon, but I think you are talking about Alan Aragon? He probably does something like heavy squats and heavy bench in one day. I can do this but I noticed the quality of my second heavy lift usually decreases and that would be all I could get done in 30 minutes. So I am impartial to the higher frequency type of lifting. Plus for some silly reason I feel lazy on days off.
 
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Well there are a bunch of reasons, most importantly because I would categorize myself in the beginner/intermediate level. I do have some experience lifting, but I think once you begin to combine strength training and endurance related activities the limited capacity for specialization predetermines the skill level you can obtain in either activity. The whole jack of all master of none argument.

Then there is the time aspect usually I have around ~30 minutes to lift a day and for trained individuals it seems like each muscle group gets trained twice a week, 5-6 sets at 80% intensity is the sweet spot. With this layout I can go in an hit the main lift hard for 10 minutes and easily get in that quantity and then spend another 10 minutes with accesories and be done. If I lift 4 times a week I will hit the main muscle groups (I've simplified into upper and lower) twice a week.

This also jives with a lot of advice I have read from non-drugged lifters as well, so I think it is quality advice. But I have customized it a little, I respond better to higher frequency for back work so I will do something like it each day. And I also like the set every minute concept and it works well with 80% and usually by the 6-8th set it feels fast and easy which is a perfect time to quit.

I don't know Dr. Aragon, but I think you are talking about Alan Aragon? He probably does something like heavy squats and heavy bench in one day. I can do this but I noticed the quality of my second heavy lift usually decreases and that would be all I could get done in 30 minutes. So I am impartial to the higher frequency type of lifting. Plus for some silly reason I feel lazy on days off.
I think a hallmark of intermediate level is getting to know what works best for you and being able to craft a suitable routine. We're kinda going in opposite directions but both of us are getting results, same with Sid, who's doing something completely different again.

I think for me the 48-hour recovery rule works really well, not just physically, but mentally too. After a day off from running or lifting, I come back refreshed and ready to attack again.

Recently it has been a bit hard to integrate the running and lifting though. I'm pushing the lifting, but also trying to up the pace in running. I'll keep at it for another few weeks at least, and if it gets to be too much, I'll lower the intensity of one or the other or both.
 
Forgot to mention that I did my barbell rows at 185, same weight as the bench press. As we've discussed, it might be a good idea if the agonist and antagonist loads are roughly equivalent. However, in order to do 185, I had to adopt a somewhat more upright posture. I've seen others do this in videos, and it feels better on my back, so whether or not this is 'cheating,' I don't really care.

Another thing I like about doing the dumbbell rows super heavy is that it works the obliques more when one's form is a bit off and you're really heaving the sucker. After I finished with 120 pounds, I tried 60, which not too long ago was the weight I used for db rows. Man, it felt as light as a feather. My form was much better, but who cares? It's like I read somewhere about biceps curls. If you do them with 'bad' form and allow your back to swing, you turning it into a different exercise, kind of like a partial pullup or something, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I wonder if 'good form' only really applies or is important on the really big lifts, like deadlifts, squats, and bench presses, where non-standard form can hurt you.
 
Anyway, stayed at 225 for my squats yesterday. I guess there's no use pushing things until my form feels absolutely solid and automatic. I think I went about as deep as I can go yesterday, and I really felt the elastic recoil of the eccentric phase push me back up into the concentric phase. So that's progress.

The alternation between bench press and other chest exercises, on the one hand, and rows, on the other, didn't go as well as the alternation between overhead presses and pullups on Monday. At first, I warmed up on the bench press and then once I got to my 3x5x185 sets, I began alternating them with inverted rows, which were easy enough to work in. I just pushed the bench away and used the weighted barbell in the rack. But for the dumbbell rows, I added 20 more pounds and did 3x3x120 for each arm. It was a tremendous amount of effort and I didn't feel like alternating them with dumbbell bench presses at all. Maybe next time. I did the cable flyes and cable rows completely separate as well, but that was mostly because I was focused on getting a feel for the cable flyes, and trying to figure out the right weight with my new set-up. I felt a little strain in my left shoulder, and today it's a little sore, so maybe I spent all that time designing the cross-over cables and putting them together for nothing. We'll see.

I did squats the other day and still have some residual soreness as well. And that was only doing 185. I'm going to keep buping it up 5kgs a week for a while.

On the alternating sets, sorry I should have clarified, if you are doing heavy bench or press or any lift it seems to work better not to superset. So normally I would bench heavy and then do lighter accessory work supersetted. I could imagine that heavy of rows left you seeing stars. Its amazing how much they work your abdominal stabilization as well.

Maybe this nagging shoulder business is just a reminder to take it very slowly at first? For both of us? Dips and flyes can't be that bad right?
 
I've decided to forego the weight vest and save for that heavier set of Powerblocks.
I've met too many ex-military guys who have had their backs destroyed by 80lb rucks. Granted they do intense things like dive into ditches with them.

I'm okay with the slightly extra calorie burn and foot conditioning with my 20lb backpack. I suspect that after I get what I can out of this routine, I'll move to something else. Probably get back into running again, after I get back into shape.
 
I did squats the other day and still have some residual soreness as well. And that was only doing 185. I'm going to keep buping it up 5kgs a week for a while.

On the alternating sets, sorry I should have clarified, if you are doing heavy bench or press or any lift it seems to work better not to superset. So normally I would bench heavy and then do lighter accessory work supersetted. I could imagine that heavy of rows left you seeing stars. Its amazing how much they work your abdominal stabilization as well.

Maybe this nagging shoulder business is just a reminder to take it very slowly at first? For both of us? Dips and flyes can't be that bad right?
Yah, the way I'm doing squats now, they really work the quads, so they're a perfect complement to the deadlifts, but it's going to take a while before my legs and glutes can handle the kind of deadlifts, squats, and running I want to do on a consistent basis. So it makes sense to only push the deadlifts and maybe a little bit the running and just work on form for the squats for a while. In 6-12 months hopefully everything will be up to speed. I would still like to be able to squat at least 315 on a routine basis. And I'm getting a sense that I may be one of those guys who can squat close to my deadlift, so if I can really get the deadlift up to 405, then a squat in the mid-300s should be possible. Man, that would be great.

Thanks for the clarification on super sets. That makes sense and is a big help. Next time I'll probably still superset the bb bench press and inverted rows, and maybe light db bench press with heavy db rows, but then do bb rows, dips, and Russian Twists separately. We'll see. It might be a good idea to do the cable flyes and cable rows supersetted, but it's kind of a hassle since they use the same low pulley.

For cable flyes, I think next time I'll do them a bit lighter. Also, on the third set I did them with less arc, drawing the elbows more straight back and then pushing the cables, and this helped.

For dips, ring dips are considerably harder than bar dips. My plan is to get good on the latter first. You could also do assisted dips by keeping your feet on the floor or bench, or just half dips. In the end, I may have to give up on the cable flyes and you on the dips, but like you said, first we should try reduced versions and try to build up to them more.

Really looking forward to the high pulls and power cleans tomorrow . . .