Optimal strength training for runners

Left MCL feels a little better today, but still stiff and a bit painful. Walked a mile this morning, seemed to help loosen it up. Will walk a mile back home later. Still trying to figure out how it happened, and whether I need to modify my current approach, or just dismiss it as a freak accident. I know I need to stretch more, but am I going too hard on the deadlifts and squats? And am I pushing my running comeback too quickly?

Anyway, yesterday I finalized the design for the cross-over cables and ordered the custom cables--one for the cross-over, one for pulldowns. The whole thing is going to cost more than I anticipated, but now my home gym is pretty much complete. I can do all the stuff I could do in a bigger gym, but without having to wait for others to finish using a piece of equipment, and with the convenience of working out whenever I have the time and energy.

Here's a slightly revised Three-Day ST workout plan, with the essential exercises listed first and in boldface. It incorporates a few of the things we've been discussing lately, like supersetting ab roll-outs with pullups, and also tries to pare down the CAMP (Core, Agility, Mobility, Plyometrics) workout into two, more doable workouts on my non-ST/running days.
ST 3 Push1, Pull2, MAPS 14.07.10.jpg
 
Good news Sid! Funny though, all three of us are in various phases of injury recovery. Gettin' old . . .
It's worth it to reduce the effects of sarcopenia.

Sore today. Haven't done squats in too long. The mileage competition is also keeping me busy. These rainy FL evenings aren't helping with my twice daily runs. Though, the competition is helping burn some flab, which is good. I had to buy wider pants, while I was recuperating. Havn't done that in a long time.
 
It's worth it to reduce the effects of sarcopenia.

Sore today. Haven't done squats in too long. The mileage competition is also keeping me busy. These rainy FL evenings aren't helping with my twice daily runs. Though, the competition is helping burn some flab, which is good. I had to buy wider pants, while I was recuperating. Havn't done that in a long time.
Oh yeah, there's really no option: use it, or lose it (resulting in "flesh poverty"--sacro-penia. What a great term, thanks Sid!) And the injuries we get from training tend to be much more minor than the ones we would get from being out of shape, like chronic back pain for example.

My MCL is improving rapidly, and I was able to do some bodyweight squats yesterday, but I'm still going to hold off on the running. I tried running a few steps on my way home yesterday afternoon, and the knee was not happy. So I guess it was from the semi-sprints and then torquing it a bit when it was in a fatigued state. My sense is that a little post-run stretching might've prevented it, so I'm going to try to be more vigilante about that again.

I'm also wondering if I should focus a little more on weight loss. I generally prefer to lose weight solely through exercise. I'm also making a push in the strength training so I don't really want to cut calories while in this phase. Still, I'm pretty sure it would help me regain my running fitness, and also reach my goal of running a little faster overall, if I could rapidly shed 20-30 pounds. I've done it once before. It might mean missing a few 1RMs on my heavy lifts, but it could be worth it. I had gotten down to 210, now I'm back up to 245, although some of it must be new muscle mass . . .

Sid, you've looked into a lot of health and nutrition stuff, what do you think of Saffron extract as a natural appetite suppressant?

Yesterday, really got into the overhead presses. I think Rippetoe is right (again): those really are superior to bench presses for overall, functional strength. Maybe, if my shoulders are OK with it, I should be doing overhead presses twice a week? Something like:

Mon: DL, overhead presses, pullups
Wed: Squats, bench presses, dips, rows & Russian Twist
Fri: lite DLs and squats, plyo-pulls, overhead presses, pullups

I've never followed the antagonistic protocol for any length of time, but maybe combining the top pushes and pulls (presses and pullups) and the middle pushes and pulls (bench and rows) in workouts might be worth a shot? Thoughts?
 
Yesterday, really got into the overhead presses. I think Rippetoe is right (again): those really are superior to bench presses for overall, functional strength. Maybe, if my shoulders are OK with it, I should be doing overhead presses twice a week? Something like:

Mon: DL, overhead presses, pullups
Wed: Squats, bench presses, dips, rows & Russian Twist
Fri: lite DLs and squats, plyo-pulls, overhead presses, pullups

I've never followed the antagonistic protocol for any length of time, but maybe combining the top pushes and pulls (presses and pullups) and the middle pushes and pulls (bench and rows) in workouts might be worth a shot? Thoughts?

Yeah thats what I always try to do. I like it because I can alternate lifts to move a little quicker.

So today
EMOM for 10 TBDL
and
5x5
Bench & One Arm rows alternated

I'm not sure I agree about the presses, even if I had to choose I would probably pick the bench. Mostly because of loading though. But since we don't have to pick... there is no harm in doing them twice a week. I think the deloitds are like your back and can take a beating. Maybe instead of loading heavy you can do lighter load for higher reps. Build up some muscle!
 
Yeah thats what I always try to do. I like it because I can alternate lifts to move a little quicker.

So today
EMOM for 10 TBDL
and
5x5
Bench & One Arm rows alternated

I'm not sure I agree about the presses, even if I had to choose I would probably pick the bench. Mostly because of loading though. But since we don't have to pick... there is no harm in doing them twice a week. I think the deloitds are like your back and can take a beating. Maybe instead of loading heavy you can do lighter load for higher reps. Build up some muscle!
Thanks for the feedback. I may have to give alternating antagonistic sets a try, but it might necessitate more messing around with equipment. And I don't know about higher reps--it's just mentally hard for me to concentrate past 5-8 reps. A little switch goes off and tells me to stop. Plus, hypertrophy tends to be looked down upon by the artist and intellectual crowd I hang out with. They start to treat you like a dumbass if you look like a jock. But like I say, I'm a geek trapped in a jock's body. Maybe I need status-reassignment surgery?

For the presses, I like the overhead presses because they work the back and stability muscles more than the bench presses. But you're right, with the firmer platform and bigger muscles, the bench press means a bigger load. Right now my bench press is twice the load as my overhead press. Seems like the ratio should be more like 3:2 or 4:3 though, so if my 1RM bench is 225, the overhead press should be 150-175lbs, right? I'm nowhere near that now. My seated overhead press 1RM is just 105. Standing with a little push, it's more like 125 lbs. It would be nice to get the seated press up. I know I'm taking the ExRx strength standards a little too seriously, but it would be nice if everything caught up to my bench press, which is already intermediate according to them. That is, it would be nice if all the basic lifts were intermediate level. It's just a question of whether I should be working on them all at once, or take them on one by one.

Weren't you going to upload your new 8-week plan?
 
Thanks for the feedback. I may have to give alternating antagonistic sets a try. Don't know about higher reps though--it's just mentally hard for me to concentrate past 5-8 reps. A little switch goes off and tells me to stop. Plus, hypertrophy tends to be looked down upon by the artist and intellectual crowd I hang out with. They start to treat you like a dumbass if you look like a jock. But like I say, I'm a geek trapped in a jock's body. Maybe I need status-reassignment surgery?

For the presses, I like the overhead presses because they work the back and stability muscles more than the bench presses. But you're right, with the firmer platform and bigger muscles, the bench press means a bigger load. Right now my bench press is twice the load as my overhead press. Seems like the ratio should be more like 3:2 or 4:3 though, so if my 1RM bench is 225, the overhead press should be 150-175lbs, right? I'm nowhere near that now. My seated overhead press 1RM is just 105. Standing with a little push, it's more like 125 lbs. It would be nice to get the seated press up. I know I'm taking the ExRx strength standards a little too seriously, but it would be nice if everything caught up to my bench press, which is already intermediate according to them. That is, it would be nice if all the basic lifts were intermediate level. It's just a question of whether I should be working on them all at once, or take them on one by one.

Weren't you going to upload your new 8-week plan?

Yeah I can't figure out why when I push that little button that says Upload a File nothing happens. I'll type it up when I get a chance. I just stole the concept from you a bit but I just do 3 lifts and some ab work. I'll probably switch it up every 4 weeks.

I'm surprised that your press isn't higher. I think genetically you are like me and upper pushing movements tend to come easier than other lifts. I'm not sure what I can max press anymore since I took your advice and now I pretty much do everything at a 100kg(220)/60kg(135) max for the bench and press and its about the same difficulty for 5 reps of each so 60%? 3:2 might be a little generous. Plus with shoulder injuries? But thats what I meant one day do 1-3 reps and the other do 5-8 with a lower load. Or go crazy and do push presses or seated behind the neck presses.

Oh speak of the devil...
http://www.t-nation.com/training/nailing-the-overhead-press

You know I was checking myself out in the mirror the other day after some comments from my wife, and I noticed my rear deltoid is significantly less developed than my front side? Maybe do some lateral raises? I guess I could do facepulls with my rings?

Anyway I have seen some impressive results from using a couple of protein shakes a day. And my appetite is significantly decreased. Can't say I have lost any weight but body definition has definitely changed.

How do the barefeet go over with them? I always feel out of place when I am with runners. Although I have to admit I tend to gravitate towards the more active friends anyway since this crap consumes so much of my time.
 
Yeah I can't figure out why when I push that little button that says Upload a File nothing happens. I'll type it up when I get a chance. I just stole the concept from you a bit but I just do 3 lifts and some ab work. I'll probably switch it up every 4 weeks.

I'm surprised that your press isn't higher. I think genetically you are like me and upper pushing movements tend to come easier than other lifts. I'm not sure what I can max press anymore since I took your advice and now I pretty much do everything at a 100kg(220)/60kg(135) max for the bench and press and its about the same difficulty for 5 reps of each so 60%? 3:2 might be a little generous. Plus with shoulder injuries? But thats what I meant one day do 1-3 reps and the other do 5-8 with a lower load. Or go crazy and do push presses or seated behind the neck presses.

Well, the seated row takes off a good 20 pounds or so, but I like it because it really works the back and stabilizers. I think the main reason for the discrepancy though, is that I had laid off the overhead presses in the mistaken belief that they were aggravating my shoulder issue. But it appears it was the wide-grip bench presses that were the main culprit.

Pushes versus pulls I don't know if it's genetic or just the fact that I've always emphasized front work over back work. Probably because it's what you see in the mirror. But now I'm on the back bandwagon. Which is another reason for favoring the overhead press versus the bench press for a while.

If I had a higher garage ceiling I might do more push presses.

Yah, I guess I could go lighter on Fridays, which I already kind of do, except I really hit the dumbbell rows. With the dumbbell rows on Wednesday (see below), that would work to just do lighter weight barbell overhead presses on Friday.

I've read enough bad things about behind the neck presses to avoid them--same with behind the neck pulldowns--although I don't think I ever had any trouble with them.

Oh speak of the devil...
http://www.t-nation.com/training/nailing-the-overhead-press

Hmnn, thumbless grip again. I'll have to give it a try.

You know I was checking myself out in the mirror the other day after some comments from my wife, and I noticed my rear deltoid is significantly less developed than my front side? Maybe do some lateral raises? I guess I could do facepulls with my rings?

Yah, I think that's the second cause of my shoulder issue--muscle imbalance. Another reason to work on the back more. Raises and reverse flies could help too.

Anyway I have seen some impressive results from using a couple of protein shakes a day. And my appetite is significantly decreased. Can't say I have lost any weight but body definition has definitely changed.

Yah, for me, it's mostly lack of consistent running, and now I got this MCL issue to deal with. I eat protein at every meal, but I might cut down general portions by 10-25% for a while, and see if it helps. Probably shouldn't drink any alcohol during the week either, but that's a hard sell.

How do the barefeet go over with them? I always feel out of place when I am with runners. Although I have to admit I tend to gravitate towards the more active friends anyway since this crap consumes so much of my time.

Barefoot works because it's eccentric, which artists like with kneejerk approval, or contrarian, which pleases intellectuals. Administrative types, however, tend not to like non-conformity.

Here's a sketch of how an antagonistic program might look. The deadlift, hinge swings, squats, plyo-pulls aren't antagonistic, but then after I start with those kinds of lifts, I move into two top push-pull routines, Mon & Fri, and one middle push-pull routine, Wed. Since the latter is so heavy, I moved the squats out of Wednesday and put them in Friday, which is a bit dubious because Saturday is supposed to be my long run day. But I guess if I'm going slow enough it doesn't matter. One advantage is that if Tuesday is my intervals/hills day, I don't have to do squats the following day. I've removed the CAMP workouts and most of the assistance exercises for clarity. Once again, the boldfaced lifts are the priorities.

ST 3 Alternating Antagonistic 14.07.11.jpg
 
I don't know of any reliable evidence that indicates that saffron extract is effective for weight loss. In general, most weight loss supplements are relatively ineffective. Those that are effective, are not generally safe, and get removed from the market after a few years. Those that are safe and "effective" aren't very effective, maybe 1lb a month if that.

I find activity and food to be effective appetite suppressants. Various foods vary in their ability to satiate. In general, I find it more effective to change my diet rather than diet. I prefer protein, produce, modest carbs, healthy fats, and reduction of liquid calories.

You may find this to be helpful.
http://dynamicduotraining.com/ask-t...e-lose-fat-lets-ask-the-experts-how-its-done/
 
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I don't know of any reliable evidence that indicates that saffron extract is effective for weight loss. In general, most weight loss supplements are relatively ineffective. Those that are effective, are not generally safe, and get removed from the market after a few years. Those that are safe and "effective" aren't very effective, maybe 1lb a month if that.

I find activity and food to be effective appetite suppressants. Various foods vary in their ability to satiate. In general, I find it more effective to change my diet rather than diet. I prefer protein, produce, modest carbs, healthy fats, and reduction of liquid calories.

You may find this to be helpful.
http://dynamicduotraining.com/ask-t...e-lose-fat-lets-ask-the-experts-how-its-done/
Thanks for the feedback Sid! I've never taken diet supplements, so it was good to hear you haven't found anything positive about them.

Nothing really new in that article, but it's nice to see a general consensus has formed around a few principles, although there were one or two outlier comments in there.

In the end, I don't think there's much I can do except eat a little less and run more. That's always what's worked for me. I've been eating a third meal during the day to make sure I have plenty of fuel for my strength training at the end of the afternoon, but seems like it would be best to lift a little hungry and then take whey protein, BCAA, and creatine right afterwards. I eat some kind of protein at pretty much every meal (I just had a little bowl of nuts for breakfast) and my carbs are mostly raw vegetables and fruits.

My MCL feels pretty good today, maybe 95%, so what I think I'll do is up the distance of my runs a bit but continue walking some of it until my running fitness catches up to the distance. I want to continue to run between 8-9mm pace, and do some intervals as well. I want to say goodbye to the 10mm paced long runs for a while, maybe for good. I think running for 90+ minutes can create a catabolic environment, and it's probably not the best for my joints until I can achieve a leaner bodyweight anyway. I dunno, we'll see. I do like those long runs once in a while.

Once I lost 25 pounds in five weeks, basically by going half-rations, walking a lot, and avoiding alcohol. I've also lost 35 pounds over a year's time with no cut in rations, but just running 25-30 miles a week, and keeping alcohol consumption to 1-2 drinks per day. So I know what needs to be done.

My shirt size is close to XXL now, and it's been XL for the longest time. I think this is mainly due to the extra back work I've been doing. My pants size is between 36-38, and I think this is partly my belly fat, but also my glutes and thighs have gotten larger with the recent focus on deadlifts and squats. I'm pretty sure my lean body weight is 210 or less, so I've got about 30-35 pounds of fat to burn. Still, I'm probably about 10-20 percent stronger than I was a year ago, so some of it has to be increased muscle mass.
 
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There is one more option, but it is fairly rigorous, and not fun. I tried it for while, but I like daily consistency vs. cycling my diet and activity.

This process used to be called the cyclic ketogenic diet, now more commonly referred to as carb cycling.

I would think that whatever you do, you'd want to burn fat slowly to spare muscle.
 
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but I like daily consistency vs. cycling my diet and activity.


I would think that whatever you do, you'd want to burn fat slowly to spare muscle.

Yep, consistency over time = success. I gained weight when I stopped running consistently this last winter, so the logical thing to do is to run consistently again. I also started eating a fourth meal last fall when my hypoglycemia reappeared on a long run, but I probably overreacted. In any case, certain people in my social circle are giving me all this dieting advice, including ones who have seen me lose weight via exercise before. For me, the question is whether or not to add a little more dietary restriction to the process, to speed things up, to create a virtuous circle of: running more/faster > weight loss > running more/faster.

Unrelatedly, here's one guy's praise of inverted rows: http://drefitness.com/2010/08/21/the-inverted-row-best-upper-back-exercise-known-to-man/

OK, a little more tweaking, and here's how the idea of working more antagonistic pairings might look in my present routine. Basically, I start with the first, 'full' line of exercises in each st workout, the ones that work the full body or most of it--deadlifts, squats, power cleans, etc. Then I alternate between the second and third lines of each st workout. So barbell press is paired with the prone-grip pullup, dumbbell presses by neutral grip pullups, and so on. Some of the 3rd, 4th, and 5th pairings aren't really antagonistic to each other but are listed that way due to space limitations.

I end up doing deadlifts and squats twice a week, once heavy, and once light. I do pullups and overhead presses twice a week too. Bench press and rows are only done once a week, since those are my most advanced lifts, but I'm going to do three to four different versions of them. This includes dips and cable flyes as complements to the bench press. This way I should be able to attack the chest and middle back at all angles without overloading the shoulder at any one angle. I might have to reduce from my standard three sets to two sets in order to get everything (in boldface) in on this day (Wednesday).

I'm not sure I agree with the notion that antagonistic pairings allow for greater rest between exercises, or that one really benefits from working them on the same day, rather than in separate workouts, but it's worth a try, starting Monday.

ST 3 Alternating Antagonistic 14.07.12.jpg
 
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It would be nice to get the seated press up. I know I'm taking the ExRx strength standards a little too seriously, but it would be nice if everything caught up to my bench press, which is already intermediate according to them. That is, it would be nice if all the basic lifts were intermediate level. It's just a question of whether I should be working on them all at once, or take them on one by one.
I'm no expert on this. If you want to make strength gains, you don't want to cut calories right? So, it would be either accept the flab for now and make your strength gains, or burn the flab and try to preserve the strength gains that you've made already.
 
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http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=130636163
Found this thread. It has a lot of bro-talk, but also some good science.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16287373
It look like working each body part twice a week, isn't a bad idea.

This upper, lower twice a week look interesting, but I don't have the commitment and strength endurance to do it. However, getting each body part twice a week should do fine.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachments/ 16727d1173200746-best-use-39-microsoft-word-sample .att

More squats today. Using the information above, did 3 low rep work sets. We'll see how it goes.
Didn't injure myself, so I'm already ahead! :D
 
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http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=130636163
Found this thread. It has a lot of bro-talk, but also some good science.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16287373
It look like working each body part twice a week, isn't a bad idea.

This upper, lower twice a week look interesting, but I don't have the commitment and strength endurance to do it. However, getting each body part twice a week should do fine.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachments/ 16727d1173200746-best-use-39-microsoft-word-sample .att

More squats today. Using the information above, did 3 low rep work sets. We'll see how it goes.
Didn't injure myself, so I'm already ahead! :D

For untrained individuals, maximal strength gains are elicited at a mean training intensity of 60% of 1 repetition maximum (1RM), 3 days per week, and with a mean training volume of 4 sets per muscle group. Recreationally trained nonathletes exhibit maximal strength gains with a mean training intensity of 80% of 1RM, 2 days per week, and a mean volume of 4 sets.
For athlete populations, maximal strength gains are elicited at a mean training intensity of 85% of 1RM, 2 days per week, and with a mean training volume of 8 sets per muscle group.

So any idea on how many repetitions per set is recommended? Its pretty much useless advice without that?
 
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I'm no expert on this. If you want to make strength gains, you don't want to cut calories right? So, it would be either accept the flab for now and make your strength gains, or burn the flab and try to preserve the strength gains that you've made already.
Yah, to some extent, but a lot of advice has to be run through the pro->recreational filter, as always. I'm don't train anywhere near the limits of my metabolism, but having read up a bit too much on all the training advice, I always make sure to have a full tank of fuel before an st workout. I never used to think about it, and I can't say I'm making gains any faster now. Of course, one has to adjust for age--metabolism slows, and strength declines--but I'm wondering if it would be such a bad thing to train a little hungry once in a while. Elite athletes have to monitor that stuff closely, because every second, pound, or inch counts in competition, and they're training 4-5 hours a day, but I doubt it makes that much difference for me. I just don't think the bodies of recreational/fitness runners and lifters who exercise moderately an hour or less a day are that sensitive to variation in training or nutritional inputs.

Thanks for all the links!

As I've said, I've lost weight before, both quickly and gradually, so I know what needs to be done (maintain a healthy diet, eat a lot/little less, run or walk a fair bit), but I'm getting a little impatient with how long it's taking my running fitness to come back. I think once I'm back up over 20 miles per week, ideally in the 25-30 mpw range, everything will sort itself out, especially if I can manage to run at slightly faster paces, which is my goal. In the meantime, I was wondering if perhaps a little more drastic approach to dieting, temporarily, might get me over the hump a little quicker. Hence the Saffron query. I didn't mean to give the impression that I'm morbidly obese or overly frustrated.

For lifting, I think what I may end up doing is cutting out the third meal before my workout, and then have a protein shake with creatine and BCAAs right after. Most people seem to claim benefit from the latter, so I'll be taking care of my st's post-workout need for muscle replenishment, without giving my body as much opportunity to store food as fat. I usually eat dinner within one to two hours after my st workout, but perhaps an immediate influx of nutrients will help. There's seems to be a consensus on getting something in within 30 minutes of working out, although once again, I wonder if our physiologies are really that precise and sensitive.

Also, for those training regimen protocols, they're talking about body parts, but if you're doing full, compound movements, it's kinda hard to calculate exactly how many times per week you're using the lats or triceps, for example. I like the idea of force/direction pairings much better--push/up, push/out, push/down, and pull/down, pull/in, pull/up. My current approach is to do each one once a week, minimally, and then if you have time left over, do the ones that are weak or are a point of emphasis twice a week. My pullups (pull/down) and overhead press (push/up) are weak compared to my rows (pull/in) and bench press (push/out) , so I do the former twice a week. And these days I'm emphasizing my deadlift (pull/up) and squat (push/down), so I do them once heavy and once light each week. Finally, I like to do some plyometrics things, like power cleans or high pulls, in addition to box jumps.

Sets and reps we've discussed before, but for me, lifts that are a point of emphasis should incorporate 1-2RM and back-off sets on the heavy days. Most other exercises should be somewhere in the 3x5 range, give or take a set, and 1-2 reps. The whole point of strength training, as opposed to bodybuilding, powerlifting, or weightlifting, is to improve overall strength, so you gotta lift relatively heavy for each force/direction pairing. I do the assistance stuff with fewer sets and higher reps, but due to time constraints, I rarely get around to them and tend to stick to the main lifts anyway. And assistance lifts should be exactly that, ones that assist in performing the main lifts, not ones that bring out your lower pec or some other body part. From a strength-training perspective, you don't train the hamstring or biceps, you try to get strong pushing and pulling stuff. If an exercise isn't helping you do that, then it's not strength training. Which is not to say bodybuilding, powerlifting, or weightlifting don't have merit (OK, I have a hard time with bodybuilding), but I think we have to read these articles knowing which perspective is framing the discussion, and at what level of performance they're intended.

BTW, my new 18" starlock dumbbell bars came on Saturday. With thin 10-pound plates, there'll be enough room for 140 pounds. I did 100-pound dumbbell rows on Saturday, and it felt great. I think my new protocol on dumbbell rows may be to do a few sets of 3-5 reps with 100+ pounds, with little regard for form, and then a few back-off sets at 80-90 while paying attention to good form. Dumbbell rows seem like a good exercise to just yank the damn thing as hard as you can, and see how heavy you can go.

I didn't do any of the big lifts on Saturday. My left knee MCL felt close to 100%, but I thought a few more days of rest wouldn't hurt. We'll see how it handles the deadlifts later today, and the run tomorrow.
 
Did some walking over the weekend as I needed time to recover from the miles competition. (My dogs also need the exercise.) Also, Dr. Aragon's statement about cardio being unnecessary (for strength athletes) was interesting. Got me thinking about what I could do to keep the calorie expenditure up during walking. A backpack!

Loaded up a backpack with a 22lb brake rotor. (My backpack looks too flimsy to handle more weight.) Felt pretty good!

It seems that walking with weight might be a reasonable alternative to high mileage running until I burn off some more flab. Seems low impact, too.

So, I'm thinking about getting weighted vest. It could also come in handy, as I need more weight on my deads.

I don't know about being born to run, but it does seem that people in other countries walk around a lot carrying stuff. Maybe they are healthier for it. Less catchy than born to run, though. :D
 

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