Optimal strength training for runners

Bare Lee · Apr 14, 2014

Abide said:
I still haven't decided on a plan yet either and its starting to bother me. I am reading the book Easy Strength to get some ideas but I swear that book flip flops all over the place. However I have come away with a lot of good things from it. Mainly with the concepts of defining your goals and working as little as possible to meet those goals. I tend to think that doing more is better but as I get older this seems to be a good way to either get hurt or stay mediocre at everything? So maybe defining a few specific goals for the end of the year would be good for after the race later this month.

400lb. deadlift
10 x 225lb. bench Press
21 minute 5k

I think I am also going to quit the long distance running for a while too. Its really hard to justify the time right now plus I don't really like feeling like an old man getting out of bed. I like feeling springy. Also the general wellness is important to maintain as well - yoga/flexibility, hill sprinting, etc...

So I wonder how I get there?

I don't know if having a plan or goals is really that important. And being mediocre is totally acceptable when you got family and work. I don't like the idea that we have to be improving all the time. I'm already happy with my bench. Any improvement past 225 is gravy. I want to push the squat and deadlift, cuz I know there's still room for easy improvement before I get to my natural plateau. I think ExRx's intermediate level strength standards are a pretty good estimate of what that should be. I think we all have more or less natural plateaus, beyond which, it gets harder to make progress. Gains come in months or years, not in weeks or months after that. I feel like my natural plateau for running should be about a 8-9mm aerobic pace. I can feel it. I think my push for distance last summer and fall was a bit premature, but it was good to find out I'm capable of running the half-marathon distance routinely. But it was 10 mm pace or slower. Now I want to do it faster, and I'm willing to break things down again and build back up to that distance at a better pace. I'm already starting to get results from the every morning running routine.

For me, the real key is consistency, everything else is secondary. I need a schedule and a routine that I can do consistently. Early morning running works pretty well, but I've still be trying to find the best way to do the st and plyo/mobility. Everyday afternoon st works, but it's a bit of a grind, and stuff often comes up to interrupt it. Hopefully by going back to three times a week on the st I'll keep interruptions to a minimum, and it will always be easy to make up a missed session. The plyo/mobility will hopefully work in the same slot on the off-days. But if I miss it, I can try to make it up on the weekend. The current thinking is that I need to get in two plyo/mo sessions per week.

Exercise time per week should be about 10 hours total. Something like:

ST 3hrs
Running 5 hrs
Plyo/Mo 1 hr
Yoga/Stretching 1 hr.

Have you thought about ratios? What's your ideal mix?

Abide · Apr 14, 2014

Bare Lee said:
I don't know if having a plan or goals is really that important. And being mediocre is totally acceptable when you got family and work. I don't like the idea that we have to be improving all the time. I'm already happy with my bench. Any improvement past 225 is gravy. I want to push the squat and deadlift, cuz I know there's still room for easy improvement before I get to my natural plateau. I think ExRx's intermediate level strength standards are a pretty good estimate of what that should be. I think we all have more or less natural plateaus, beyond which, it gets harder to make progress. Gains come in months or years, not in weeks or months after that. I feel like my natural plateau for running should be about a 8-9mm aerobic pace. I can feel it. I think my push for distance last summer and fall was a bit premature, but it was good to find out I'm capable of running the half-marathon distance routinely. But it was 10 mm pace or slower. Now I want to do it faster, and I'm willing to break things down again and build back up to that distance at a better pace. I'm already starting to get results from the every morning running routine.

For me, the real key is consistency, everything else is secondary. I need a schedule and a routine that I can do consistently. Early morning running works pretty well, but I've still be trying to find the best way to do the st and plyo/mobility. Everyday afternoon st works, but it's a bit of a grind, and stuff often comes up to interrupt it. Hopefully by going back to three times a week on the st I'll keep interruptions to a minimum, and it will always be easy to make up a missed session. The plyo/mobility will hopefully work in the same slot on the off-days. But if I miss it, I can try to make it up on the weekend. The current thinking is that I need to get in two plyo/mo sessions per week.

Exercise time per week should be about 10 hours total. Something like:

ST 3hrs
Running 5 hrs
Plyo/Mo 1 hr
Yoga/Stretching 1 hr.

Have you thought about ratios? What's your ideal mix?

Yes I agree consistency trumps all. I like the concept of goals because it helps me create and answer the the why do that excercsie question while giving me an idea of a direction. When I don't have goals the complexity of what I want to be able to do is too overreaching. Its probably more a personality fault than anything. And don't get me wrong being mediocre is perfectly cool in my book or plateau or whatever you call it. Thats the point where I would like to be as well. Here are the standards for my weight. Its intersting the jump they take between the Int and Adv.

Bare Lee · Apr 14, 2014

Abide said:
Yes I agree consistency trumps all. I like the concept of goals because it helps me create and answer the the why do that excercsie question while giving me an idea of a direction. When I don't have goals the complexity of what I want to be able to do is too overreaching. Its probably more a personality fault than anything. And don't get me wrong being mediocre is perfectly cool in my book or plateau or whatever you call it. Thats the point where I would like to be as well. Here are the standards for my weight. Its intersting the jump they take between the Int and Adv.

Yah, we all have to tailor our plans to our personality types. Rigidly adhering to these cookie cutter plans is a recipe for disaster. If it doesn't fit you, you simply won't do it.

Me, I'm basically lazy and don't like to think about my routine too much once I'm actually doing it (although I obviously think about it too much when I'm supposed to be working!). So that's why I go by feel. I have my maxes, but sets and reps are loose. And now with a reduced system, I won't need a list telling me what all my maxes are supposed to be. I've been doing the exercises long enough now that they're in my head. So it's WMR: Warm-up, Max, Reduce. I guess I could run that way too now that I think about it.

Those intermediate standards look good for me at 220. I gotta lose 20 pounds of winter fat first, but fat doesn't really enter into the formula.

Abide said:
I do like the concept of RPE, reading more about shaf's laddering is that you let the performance tell you when to increase. So if you hit 3 x 1/2/3 at a weight with an RPE of 7 out of 10 then you increase the weight then next workout. But combining some ideas from the book you would also stop the workout even if you are having a great one instead of beating yourself down and forcing a longer recovery time. Here is the original article published.

http://danjohn.net/pdfs/vaug.pdf
.

Yah, I never push to exhaustion, but I also allow for having different levels of energy on any given day. If I'm really feeling it, I'll push, if not, I'll lay off. It seems silly to lay off on a great energy day just because your program tells you to. Likewise, I would never want to run intervals or run long if I wasn't feeling up to it. As a noncompetitor, I just don't see the need to be so rigid about training concepts and scheduling.

But 80% total effort seems about right. That way, you can recover well and stay fresh, and therefore stay motivated and consistent. I still like my 1-2 rep maxes for big lifts: bench, squat, deadlift. Then I go down to 90/80/70 percent 3-5 reps and really work it. Either Jason and Bruno talked about the importance of the max lift, and that's the way I've always done it, so I agree. As long as your form is good and you're not risking injury, why wouldn't you push the max? I just don't get it. You can still do volume training afterwards.

Abide · Apr 14, 2014

Lets see with the ratios, I'm still trying to conceptualize efforts by a block, but for discussion sakes I'll use time.

Lifting, I could get 3-4 quality sessions in 40 minutes each, so 120-160 minutes
Running, 120 minute easy long run and 2 40 minute short runs, 200 minutes
Yoga, 2-3 sessions 30 minutes each, 60-90 minutes

So 380-450 minutes, and I would be ok with that actually. 32% lifting - 53% running - 15% mobility?

Bare Lee · Apr 14, 2014

Abide said:
Lets see with the ratios, I'm still trying to conceptualize efforts by a block, but for discussion sakes I'll use time.

Lifting, I could get 3-4 quality sessions in 40 minutes each, so 120-160 minutes
Running, 120 minute easy long run and 2 40 minute short runs, 200 minutes
Yoga, 2-3 sessions 30 minutes each, 60-90 minutes

So 380-450 minutes, and I would be ok with that actually. 32% lifting - 53% running - 15% mobility?

Interesting, those are about my ratios too. I think you need to do a little plyo too though. Box jumps in particular are really fantastic. I'm also going to try to get back to clubbells cuz I think they help shoulder health. I'm including them in my plyo/mobility component, and conceiving of yoga/stretching as a separate component. Mobility for me is more like leg swings with ankle weights, lunges with a medicine ball pullover, etc.

Overall, I've been impressed how the big lifts seem to be helping my running. My form feels really good now. If I can lose some weight and up the pace I think I'll be pretty happy with my running, the equivalent of 'intermediate' level in the strength standards.

Abide · Apr 14, 2014

Bare Lee said:
Yah, I never push to exhaustion, but I also allow for having different levels of energy on any given day. If I'm really feeling it, I'll push, if not, I'll lay off. It seems silly to lay off on a great energy day just because your program tells you to. Likewise, I would never want to run intervals or run long if I wasn't feeling up to it. As a noncompetitor, I just don't see the need to be so rigid about training concepts and scheduling.

But 80% total effort seems about right. That way, you can recover well and stay fresh, and therefore stay motivated and consistent. I still like my 1-2 rep maxes for big lifts: bench, squat, deadlift. Then I go down to 90/80/70 percent 3-5 reps and really work it. Either Jason and Bruno talked about the importance of the max lift, and that's the way I've always done it, so I agree. As long as your form is good and you're not risking injury, why wouldn't you push the max? I just don't get it. You can still do volume training afterwards.

I'm just going to repeat from the book, but basically if you are lifting to support another sport then lifting doesn't matter. So pushing a good day could possibly eat into recovery and limit tomorrow's or the day after training in the sport. Too many max attempts may cause CNS fatigue and can be something that is difficult to recover from and cause injury especially as you get older. I don't know if its true. Maybe it would be something good to try out in a cycle. Do a heavier 6 week cycle and see what you gain and how you feel, then cut reps in half for another cycle and see what happens?

Bare Lee · Apr 14, 2014

Abide said:
I'm just going to repeat from the book, but basically if you are lifting to support another sport then lifting doesn't matter. So pushing a good day could possibly eat into recovery and limit tomorrow's or the day after training in the sport. Too many max attempts may cause CNS fatigue and can be something that is difficult to recover from and cause injury especially as you get older. I don't know if its true. Maybe it would be something good to try out in a cycle. Do a heavier 6 week cycle and see what you gain and how you feel, then cut reps in half for another cycle and see what happens?

Well, none of my maxes are eye-bulging, red-faced efforts. They're still pretty comfortable. Even on the deadlifts, which are pretty safe cuz if you fail you can just drop the bar, I never strain. Just too risky for the knees and back. If it feels like a strain, I back off immediately. So if I'm doing 305 x 1rep DL, I could probably do 3 reps if I really tried, but it would be risky.

I guess it comes down to defining what we mean by 'max' lift. For me, that's 1-2 reps with good form and hard effort but no strain. It's a max because anything past 1-2 reps and form breaks down or strain sets in. 3-5 reps with good form and decent but not hard effort is no longer a max. I like to do that after the max, as I've said, and feel like that's where the real progress is made. But I don't feel like I would make as much progress if I didn't do the max first. Does this make sense?

I don't train for any sports, just general fitness, but I am a little worried that doing squats twice a week and a deadlift session, or deadlifts twice a week and a squat session, as my new routine is set up, may interfere with my running. Running is still the centerpiece of my fitness routine. I'm willing to back off the running for few weeks, but if the st keeps taking away from the running I'll reduce the squats and deadlifts with either fewer reps or lower weekly frequency. My sense is, however, that over the long haul, these big lifts are going to make me a much better runner, so I'm going to try to give the new st routine a decent chance to succeed. The early results are promising; on several runs within the last week or so, I've found myself unconsciously speeding up.

Bare Lee · Apr 14, 2014

Abide said:
Yes I agree consistency trumps all. I like the concept of goals because it helps me create and answer the the why do that excercsie question while giving me an idea of a direction. When I don't have goals the complexity of what I want to be able to do is too overreaching. Its probably more a personality fault than anything. And don't get me wrong being mediocre is perfectly cool in my book or plateau or whatever you call it. Thats the point where I would like to be as well. Here are the standards for my weight. Its intersting the jump they take between the Int and Adv.

I wonder why those strength standard charts don't list maxes for rows or pulldowns/pullups. What's your sense of what a good, intermediate level row weight should be for 220lbs? Since it's a countering weight for the bench, as you mentioned, does 200-225 sound about right? I'm a little reluctant to think about my rows in terms of maxes--I usually do them in the 3-5 rep range, but maybe I'll give it a try if I can maintain decent form. That would be the Pendlay style, from the floor and returning to floor for each rep, back parallel to the ground, grip width determined by back position. Then for my 3-5 rep sets afterwards, I could use the lat blaster/t-bar/swivel platform set-up.

Abide · Apr 14, 2014

Bare Lee said:
Well, none of my maxes are eye-bulging, red-face efforts. They're still pretty comfortable. Even on the deadlifts, which are pretty safe cuz if you fail you can just drop the bar, I never strain. Just too risky for the knees and back. If it feels like a strain, I back off immediately. So if I'm doing 305 x 1rep DL, I could probably do 3 reps if I really tried, but it would be risky.

I guess it comes down to defining what we mean by 'max' lift. For me, that's 1-2 reps with good form and hard effort but no strain. It's a max because anything past 1-2 reps and form breaks down or strain sets in. 3-5 reps with good form and decent but not hard effort is no longer a max. I like to do that after the max, as I've said, and feel like that's where the real progress is made. But I don't feel like I would make as much progress if I didn't do the max first. Does this make sense?

I don't train for any sports, just general fitness, but I am a little worried that doing squats twice a week and a deadlift session, or deadlifts twice a week and a squat session, as my new routine is set up, may interfere with my running. Running is still the centerpiece of my fitness routine. I'm willing to back off the running for few weeks, but if the st keeps taking away from the running I'll reduce the squats and deadlifts with either fewer reps or lower weekly frequency. My sense is, however, that in the long run, these big lifts are going to make me a much better runner, so I'm going to try to give the new st routine a decent chance to succeed. The early results are promising; on several runs within the last week or so, I've found myself unconsciously speeding up.

Yeah it does make sense. It sounds like you are basically doing the concept without giving it a name. So where on this chart would your max fall?

Its from this page if you are interested.
http://forum.reactivetrainingsystems.com/content.php?138-Beginning-RTS-Re-Packaged-April-2014

I think the biggest piece of the running would be simply losing weight, but we aren't willing to do that so lifting should have some impact specifically for speed. And at the very least maybe no benefit but at least we have another hobby!

Abide · Apr 14, 2014

Bare Lee said:
I wonder why those strength standard charts don't list maxes for rows or pulldowns/pullups. What's your sense of what a good, intermediate level row weight should be for 220lbs? Since it's a countering weight for the bench, as you mentioned, does 200-225 sound about right? I'm a little reluctant to think about my rows in terms of maxes--I usually do them in the 3-5 rep range, but maybe I'll give it a try if I can maintain decent form. That would be the Pendlay style, from the floor and returning to floor for each rep, back parallel to the ground, grip width determined by back position. Then for my 3-5 rep sets afterwards, I could use the lat blaster/t-bar/swivel platform set-up.

I suspect they don't because its difficult to get a true comparison, maybe with the pendlay row but I think after a certain point most people wouldn't do them anymore?

Bare Lee · Apr 14, 2014

Abide said:
Yeah it does make sense. It sounds like you are basically doing the concept without giving it a name. So where on this chart would your max fall?

View attachment 3739

Its from this page if you are interested.
http://forum.reactivetrainingsystems.com/content.php?138-Beginning-RTS-Re-Packaged-April-2014

I think the biggest piece of the running would be simply losing weight, but we aren't willing to do that so lifting should have some impact specifically for speed. And at the very least maybe no benefit but at least we have another hobby!

Well, it still depends on how we're defining max. Does Tuchscherer allow for strain and/or less-than-ideal form? He's a powerlifter so he's probably willing to get red-faced with strain. I'm not.

But I agree with the general concept, and you're right, that's how I train: RTS, a.k.a. lifting/running/training by feel.

Of course the ability to train by feel presupposes some prior experience. When someone is first starting out, maybe the numbers and charts are helpful, but I don't recall ever doing it that way. My brother or one of his friends must have told me about reducing weight after you reach your max, but after that, it's just a matter of seeing how your body responds. I always seem to know when I've done enough sets or reps.

One difference between my feel method and RTS is that Tuchscherer seems to maintain the same number of reps as he reduces weight. I like the max weight to be 1-2 reps, but most of the reduced sets to be more in the 3-5 rep range. Sometimes with the bench press and deadlift I'll come down just a bit and maintain a 1-2 rep set however. Still, at some point I think it's good to do 3-5 reps, cuz it trains stamina a bit more. I usually don't do any more than 5-6 reps however, unless I'm in the warm-up phase. I suppose I could get even more stamina by going higher rep when fatigued, but that would interfere with the other exercises. The idea is to be a bit sore, but not too sore or stiff then next day.

For running, you're right I would love to get down to 200. I'm sure that would subtract at least 15-30 seconds per mile. I got down to 210 last year, then held steady at around 220, then gained 20lbs this winter as my running fell off. But I think I've also added muscle mass these last few months, and my running performance isn't important enough to me that I would ever sacrifice strength for speed. My pace standard in running is simply the pace that feels good to me. Ten-minute-per-mile pace feels OK, but 8-9 mm feels much better. Anything faster than that would be gravy, just as any 1RM past ExRx's intermediate level strength standards would be.

So I guess those are my goals. After that, I would imagine I would work more on the plyo stuff, and maybe yoga. I don't have a good sense of what a good intermediate standard would be for those, but I know right now I'm at the novice level. Although in terms of pure stretchiness, I'm already pretty good. What I want is to be more springy and limber.

If I can reach all these goals--maxes, pace, springiness, and limberness--within a year or two, I think I could say I'll have reached a decent level of general fitness and have slowed down the aging process about as well as possible.

Abide said:
I suspect they don't because its difficult to get a true comparison, maybe with the pendlay row but I think after a certain point most people wouldn't do them anymore?

Yah, I was thinking the same thing; the big lifts involve less variation. Pulldowns in particular are hard to compare because the pulley system can be different. But there's also different kinds of pullups and rows.

Bare Lee · Apr 14, 2014

Wow, we wrote a lot today/this morning. Thanks for the exchange, it's really helped clarify concepts for me. Nick, or anybody else, please feel free to contribute.

OK, I've tweaked the new 3x per week minimalist st routine a bit more over lunchtime. Mostly, I've added a little more variety to the secondary exercises, to keep things interesting while I grind away at the three big daily lifts. See what you think. I'm going to go easy at first because I don't think I've ever down three big lifts in one workout. I'm going to do the first one now, might not hit any maxes, we'll see. I gotta split early because I'm taking the kids to the dentist close to 5pm. That should be fun.

NickW · Apr 14, 2014

Bare Lee said:
Wow, we wrote a lot today/this morning. Thanks for the exchange, it's really helped clarify concepts for me. Nick, or anybody else, please feel free

I don't really have much to add yet Lee. Just trying to give my own minimalist routine some time to see how it affects me. I have kinda stolen your ideas on big lifts, pyramiding, plyo, and put my own twist on it. My goal right now is weight loss and not performance like the two of you. I am also trying to increase flexibility and get my body to stay injury free.

Abide · Apr 15, 2014

Bare Lee said:
Wow, we wrote a lot today/this morning. Thanks for the exchange, it's really helped clarify concepts for me. Nick, or anybody else, please feel free to contribute.

OK, I've tweaked the new 3x per week minimalist st routine a bit more over lunchtime. Mostly, I've added a little more variety to the secondary exercises, to keep things interesting while I grind away at the three big daily lifts. See what you think. I'm going to go easy at first because I don't think I've ever down three big lifts in one workout. I'm going to do the first one now, might not hit any maxes, we'll see. I gotta split early because I'm taking the kids to the dentist close to 5pm. That should be fun.

Yes we did and likewise, it helps me to talk it over to really weed through all the info and see different perspectives.

I like the plan and think I will do something very similar but possibly only two days a week. I know you probably have it in another workout but don't forget dedicated ab work unless you are just skipping it? I am also wondering if you might want to skip one big leg lift and do power cleans? If you are feeling like you are not getting enough recovery. Or is that thrust cleans?

Also give snatch grip high pulls a whirl too I have been getting some good results similar but better to shrugs. With a little less tension on my neck. And if you are doing loaded carries its very similar.

Bare Lee · Apr 15, 2014

NickW said:
I don't really have much to add yet Lee. Just trying to give my own minimalist routine some time to see how it affects me. I have kinda stolen your ideas on big lifts, pyramiding, plyo, and put my own twist on it. My goal right now is weight loss and not performance like the two of you. I am also trying to increase flexibility and get my body to stay injury free.

Would be interested in your approach/routine, if you have a minute.

Abide said:
Yes we did and likewise, it helps me to talk it over to really weed through all the info and see different perspectives.

I like the plan and think I will do something very similar but possibly only two days a week. I know you probably have it in another workout but don't forget dedicated ab work unless you are just skipping it? I am also wondering if you might want to skip one big leg lift and do power cleans? If you are feeling like you are not getting enough recovery. Or is that thrust cleans?

Also give snatch grip high pulls a whirl too I have been getting some good results similar but better to shrugs. With a little less tension on my neck. And if you are doing loaded carries its very similar.

Yah, I really feel like I'm understanding all the different possibilities better now. There's like a million fitness sites all telling you that they've discovered the secret, but I guess through our discussion and reading around that I kind of know what's going to work for me. I'm really happy to have discovered box jumps, and appreciate your pushing me to do more squats, and focus on the big lifts, among other things.

We'll see how well the knees hold up to three big lower body lifts per week. I've tried to mitigate the stress a bit by making one of the squat days front squats, which I can do higher rep/lower weight if need be. I'm also alternating the deadlifts between BB and Trap Bar. We'll see. Yesterday I did everything at about 80 percent: Squat and Bench Press at 175 instead of 225, Rows at 150 instead of 200, skipped the Dips and did Landmines at 100 instead of 150. I did three sets of 3-5 reps for each exercise after initial warmups. I'm easing into this for the first week or two, to see how my body reacts. If it's too much I will either modify or go back to my previous routine, which only has two big lower body days and works every other body part/area once a week. I don't want to lay off doing my maxes for too long.

Power Cleans would be an excellent substitute, and I like that they're more plyometric than squats or deadlifts. They seem to aggravate my left shoulder a bit however, so I don't know how much I can push them, so I don't know if they can be the centerpiece of a third weekly workout. I think I've also been doing them with too much shoulder rotation, and not enough shrug, which could be part of the problem. I think I begin to flip the bar before I get to this stage:

I'll try practicing with an unloaded bar. I know last year I was doing them at 175 without issue, so the recent shoulder irritation is probably unrelated. It reappeared while shoveling this winter. I would love to get my power cleans up to around 225. I've uploaded a revised routine with the Power Cleans always falling on Friday, the day before my long run. Something to consider . . .

Even if I eventually bail on this routine with three workouts per week of squats or deadlifts, either substituting power cleans or incorporating one workout per week without a lower body exercise, it will serve as a nice four-week phase in which I push the squats a bit more. Of the three big lifts--bench, DL, and squat, the squat is my weakest. I should be able to do 250-275 I think, instead of 225, and will soon I hope, especially with this extra attention. The goal is still to get my dl up to 350, and my squat up to 300. My bench is already OK at 225. Those feel like my natural plateaus after a couple of years of nearly monthly gains.

With my left shoulder issue, I'm a bit leery of doing the snatch grip high pulls. But I may reintroduce the upright row as part of my row routine at some point. The thrusters would be done from full kneeling position, since I have a low garage ceiling. This will also work the back more. For the same reasons, the DB snatches will probably be done from a split or half-kneeling position.

The dedicated ab work occurs in the plyometric/mobility component, on the second page of the uploaded file. Here's how the (idealized) schedule would play out, given in minutes for each of the four fitness components:

It averages out to about 90 minutes per day. With roughly

50% Running
25% ST
15% Plyo/Mo
10% Flexibility

My initial impression after yesterday's workout is that this minimalist but full-body approach, or some modification of it, will work well, either as a periodization, or as a permanent routine. I've never done periodizations before, but I could, for example, do this one month, using more of a straight-set approach, and then the following month do more of one-big-lift-per-workout routine in which I focus more on pushing the max, using my modified drop-set approach. We'll see. I like the idea of working the whole body though. Together with my plyo/mo workout on st off-days, this means that I'll be working the whole body pretty much everyday. I pretty sure I'll be shedding some pounds soon if I can keep it up!

I really like the minimalism of alternating one workout with a lower-body push and mid-body push/pull (Squats/Bench/Row), and then a lower-body pull with an upper-body push/pull (Deadlift/Press/Pulldown). It's conceptually elegant. The one thing I don't like is having to mess with setting up equipment so much as I move from one exercise to another, but it's not that big a deal.

I forgot to mention that your goals of 400 DL, 225x10 Bench, and 21-minute 5k sound like really good goals. As you know, I've been running a 5k route around my neighborhood this month, close to every day, and have thought about timing it once in a while once it warms up a bit more. I'd be happy with a 24-minute finish, or even just 27 minutes at this point. Last summer I got below 9mm pace on a 10 k run, but haven't repeated that since. 400 DL would be awesome. You'd be approaching advanced level at that point.

Bare Lee · Apr 15, 2014

OK, here's what a completely undistributed weekly routine of the same exercises would look like:

(LM stands for 'landmine' platform)

This gets back to the idea of doing just one lift per week, but retains the idea of working the whole body each workout. The Friday workout would involve more dynamic lifts, but would also be less taxing overall, setting me up for the long run the next morning.

Abide · Apr 15, 2014

Yeah you could also do low weight high reps to stimulate recovery on the curls/snatch/twist press.

Bare Lee · Apr 15, 2014

Abide said:
Yeah you could also do low weight high reps to stimulate recovery on the curls/snatch/twist press.

Yah, I tend to do the smaller, more dynamic movements with lower weight, higher reps. Lately I've also been doing the (standing) curls more dynamically, with a bit more of a swing motion, but with heavier weight, to work my back as well. It's funny how different exercises can yield varying benefit depending on the details of execution. The kneeling thruster (did I invent this?), is a necessity in my low-ceiling garage, but it may end up working the back, glutes, abs, and hammies better than a standing thruster. The idea is to go from a full kneeling position to a praying kneeling position as the barbell is thrust up overhead. Will try it tomorrow. Another example is the kipping chinup/pullup, which would traditionally be considered cheating, but now it's legit, and serves as a great full-body plyometric-type exercise. Unfortunately my pullup bar is too close to the wall.

NickW · Apr 15, 2014

Bare Lee said:
Would be interested in your approach/routine, if you have a minute.

Well, my list is out in the garage and I am trying to hurry up here as I am eating breakfast before I run out the door for some errands, but basically I am doing flat bench (pyramid up and then down, starting at 12 reps, 10, 8, 6, 4 and then back up). After each of the first 3 sets of bench I do what I call weighted twists. I'm not really sure if there is even a real name for them, but basically it's a modified version of a workout I used to do when I was a boxer. This exercise would include a medicine ball and a partner whom you would stand back to back with and pass the medicine ball back and forth to each other. Well, I don't have a medicine ball nor a partner so I use a 25lb plate and hold it out from body and twist like I am going to hand it off to a partner. I do 3 sets of 10 full reps (meaning 10 to each side). No break from the bench to the weighted twists, but after the twists is a minute to minute and half break before bench (remember I only do this for the first 3 sets of bench and then the rest of the bench sets are by themselves with the minute to minute and half break). After this I do pullovers with a 35lb plate, 3 sets of 10 reps. After each set of the pullovers I do a set of dumbbell woodchoppers (10 reps to each side). Then after those I will do a set of squats, standing military press, deadlifts, and shoulder shrugs. I know there's more but I am drawing a blank on what they are. I do this once a week right now, although I want to do it twice a week just been running out of time. My schedule so far has been Mon - run, Tues. - P90-x plyo, Wed. - run, Thurs. - ST, Fri. - run, and then Sat if time I run or ST.

NickW · Apr 15, 2014

Oh, and I forgot to mention this routine seems to be working pretty well for weight loss as I am down 6.5lbs in two weeks, and am finally below 200 again.

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